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Do you have anything particular in mind or are you just guessing? This is all very vague and smells faintly of tinfoil-hattery. Not that I don't believe that t

by simias 9y ago

Do you have anything particular in mind or are you just guessing? This is all very vague and smells faintly of tinfoil-hattery. Not that I don't believe that the USA are heavily involved in Europe and cooperate pretty tightly with European intelligence services but the original question was about mass surveillance of the citizens. For example how do you explain the GDRP if the point is to let the USA snoop on European citizens?

mrtksn 9y ago
I don't remember where exactly I read about this, but I recall that it was an opinion peace based on the NSA leaks. Anyway, there's the Five Eyes alliance that does it, why wouldn't there be an arrangement between EU and USA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes >"Documents leaked by Snowden in 2013 revealed that the FVEY have been spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent restrictive domestic regulations on surveillance of citizens."
- simias 9y ago
  That's fair but the only complicit European country in the Five Eyes is the UK (and, well, not for long anymore I suppose). I don't think I'm willing to jump to the conclusion that "if the UK does it then certainly the other european countries must do the same". The UK<->USA relationship is rather unique. At this point you need to look on a country-by-country basis, I doubt there's a secret EU-level agreement to let the USA spy on EU citizens. For instance I could believe that the Germans might consider it, if only because they have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to international intelligence and diplomacy. That being said industrial espionage would be an obvious drawback. On the other hand I really don't expect French intelligence to accept such a scheme. French has its own network for international intelligence and is perfectly capable of spying on its own citizens if it wants to. There's simply too much to lose letting the USA in unchecked. As for the rest of Europe it's also hard to make a simple guess. Some countries like Poland are historically very USA-friendly and might accept something like that. Others on the other hand align much more with Russia nowadays and might be more willing to collaborate with the FSB than the CIA. So I still don't buy the "european countries let the USA spy on their citizens". It's too much of a leap considered the evidence we have.
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by simias 9y ago

mrtksn 9y ago

I don't remember where exactly I read about this, but I recall that it was an opinion peace based on the NSA leaks. Anyway, there's the Five Eyes alliance that does it, why wouldn't there be an arrangement between EU and USA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes >"Documents leaked by Snowden in 2013 revealed that the FVEY have been spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent restrictive domestic regulations on surveillance of citizens."

simias 9y ago
That's fair but the only complicit European country in the Five Eyes is the UK (and, well, not for long anymore I suppose). I don't think I'm willing to jump to the conclusion that "if the UK does it then certainly the other european countries must do the same". The UK<->USA relationship is rather unique. At this point you need to look on a country-by-country basis, I doubt there's a secret EU-level agreement to let the USA spy on EU citizens. For instance I could believe that the Germans might consider it, if only because they have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to international intelligence and diplomacy. That being said industrial espionage would be an obvious drawback. On the other hand I really don't expect French intelligence to accept such a scheme. French has its own network for international intelligence and is perfectly capable of spying on its own citizens if it wants to. There's simply too much to lose letting the USA in unchecked. As for the rest of Europe it's also hard to make a simple guess. Some countries like Poland are historically very USA-friendly and might accept something like that. Others on the other hand align much more with Russia nowadays and might be more willing to collaborate with the FSB than the CIA. So I still don't buy the "european countries let the USA spy on their citizens". It's too much of a leap considered the evidence we have.
- deleted 9y ago
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