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> Beyond the software analysis evidence, which speaks directly to Todd Rogers’s Dragster 5.51 score time I didn't understand this sentence: it means that, look

> Beyond the software analysis evidence, which speaks directly to Todd Rogers’s Dragster 5.51 score time I didn't understand this sentence: it means that, looking at the code and calculating all possibilities of gear changing moments, it would be impossible to achieve 5.51 ? If so, why would any other evidence be necessary ? Or, if it wasn't such analysis (and I think that this one would be definitive), why wasn't this one done ?

jperry 9y ago
No, it's exactly that and it was done years ago. He's just been untouchable until recently.
- watwut 9y ago
  Why was he untouchable?
  - bspn 9y ago
    Here's some background from a TG insider: "I seem to recall Walter Day had sold the rights to TG a couple years back. I used to work for TG some years ago, but hated it. My brother I and were constantly having to fight with what I call "the old guard" comprised of record holders from the early 80's. First, they resisted every one of our innovative new ideas like speed-gaming records for consoles, and then later we discovered a lot of the records from the '80s were bogus because video proof was not required back then. The worst was "Mr. Activision" (aka Todd Rogers), where I and several others were able to prepare a case and conclusively prove Todd had been completely fabricating world records for various Atari games. To name a few: Barnstorming (2600): Todd's record, which stood for many years, was proven to be impossible once we broke down the game code and stripped the stage of any obstacles. With the stage completely blank, flying a straight line to the finish was slower than Todd's record. When we presented this evidence, we were attacked by fans and supporters of Todd, and eventually an excuse was cooked up that I lovingly refer to as "the coffee stain excuse". Yes, after being attacked and told we were clueless about how good Todd was, one of the referees covered for him and claimed the 'document' detailing his record had a coffee stain on the part where the record time was listed. Instead of throwing the record out and forcing Todd to do a legit one on video tape, they just simply adjusted the record to be MAYBE possible by adding a half-second to the time." Source: http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=89222 http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&thread...
    - ginko 9y ago
      Having watched The King of Kong, this doesn't surprise me that much.
      - 0x445442 9y ago
        That is one hilarious and fascinating documentary. Considering when it was made, I found it incredible how there was a niche of society that had managed to come so close in capturing time in a bottle.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
ranger207 9y ago
Yes, the analysis proves 5.51 is impossible, and it's been confirmed that 5.57 is the best possible time through the use of an emulator with preprogrammed inputs, meaning that it plays the game perfectly. Todd Roger's response is that the analysis failed to consider the "human element" and how the console would respond to that.
- jerf 9y ago
  Ah, yes, the "human element", the same thing that leads people to believe they can beat a chess AI by "confusing it" by moving randomly. Still a surprisingly popular belief despite how easy it is to test the theory.
  - balls187 9y ago
    Didn't the inverse happen, Chess AI made a bunch of seemingly random bizzare moves, which confused their human opponents?
    - jerf 9y ago
      Are you thinking of AlphaGo? http://www.killtenrats.com/2016/03/12/alphago/ http://www.killtenrats.com/2016/03/12/alphago/
      - balls187 9y ago
        That's probably it.
        ZeroGravitas 9y ago
        You're probably thinking of Kasparov vs Deep Blue, the rematch. Kasparov was freaked out by a move he couldn't understand the motive for, bit assumed the computer did it for a reason. Wired magazine claims it may have been a bug.
- mackal 9y ago
  Been Heck show also console verified the TAS (they ran a TASBot like machine to play) The score has also been achieved by humans on real hardware.
Superleroy 9y ago
Exactly, they calculated the best possible time and found out that 5.51 is not even possible. Todd Rogers however has multiple impossible scores which are still considered "records" even though they can't possibly be obtained, some of them are stupidly obvious, like games in which the score increases in steps of five, yet he has a number not evenly dividable by five and such stuff. I guess nobody really knows why he still holds these records.
tomku 9y ago
You're exactly correct about the kind of analysis that was done. The code was analyzed, and the game was played frame-by-frame in an emulator to demonstrate perfect play. I believe some members of the speedrunning community also ran brute-force searches of the input space to make sure there wasn't some kind of obscure glitch that could trigger that wasn't obvious from the code. The reason that Twin Galaxies didn't accept that analysis is because they're run by members of a clique of old-school gamers who stayed behind when the speedrunning community abandoned TG, and Todd Rogers is part of that clique. The analysis was largely done by Omnigamer, who is a well-respected speedrunner outside of TG but isn't part of the clique. TG's staff chose to believe their own in-group rather than a evidence-based challenge from an outsider until their hand was forced by a viral Youtube video[1] calling them out. This kind of behavior isn't new for Twin Galaxies. They have a long history of mismanagement and corruption. Most of the times/scores posted on their site lack any publicly-viewable proof because until very recently, proof only had to be shown to TG staff "referees" so that people could keep their special techniques secret from the competition. Modern speedrunning eschews secrecy and requires publicly-viewable video proof for all runs. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e-H4sEHB54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e-H4sEHB54
aaron695 9y ago
He claimed he had a hack were he could start in a high gear (which seems untrue) Which was enough to muddy the waters for a bit.

jperry 9y ago

No, it's exactly that and it was done years ago. He's just been untouchable until recently.

watwut 9y ago
Why was he untouchable?
- bspn 9y ago
  Here's some background from a TG insider: "I seem to recall Walter Day had sold the rights to TG a couple years back. I used to work for TG some years ago, but hated it. My brother I and were constantly having to fight with what I call "the old guard" comprised of record holders from the early 80's. First, they resisted every one of our innovative new ideas like speed-gaming records for consoles, and then later we discovered a lot of the records from the '80s were bogus because video proof was not required back then. The worst was "Mr. Activision" (aka Todd Rogers), where I and several others were able to prepare a case and conclusively prove Todd had been completely fabricating world records for various Atari games. To name a few: Barnstorming (2600): Todd's record, which stood for many years, was proven to be impossible once we broke down the game code and stripped the stage of any obstacles. With the stage completely blank, flying a straight line to the finish was slower than Todd's record. When we presented this evidence, we were attacked by fans and supporters of Todd, and eventually an excuse was cooked up that I lovingly refer to as "the coffee stain excuse". Yes, after being attacked and told we were clueless about how good Todd was, one of the referees covered for him and claimed the 'document' detailing his record had a coffee stain on the part where the record time was listed. Instead of throwing the record out and forcing Todd to do a legit one on video tape, they just simply adjusted the record to be MAYBE possible by adding a half-second to the time." Source: http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=89222 http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&thread...
  - ginko 9y ago
    Having watched The King of Kong, this doesn't surprise me that much.
    - 0x445442 9y ago
      That is one hilarious and fascinating documentary. Considering when it was made, I found it incredible how there was a niche of society that had managed to come so close in capturing time in a bottle.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]

ranger207 9y ago

Yes, the analysis proves 5.51 is impossible, and it's been confirmed that 5.57 is the best possible time through the use of an emulator with preprogrammed inputs, meaning that it plays the game perfectly. Todd Roger's response is that the analysis failed to consider the "human element" and how the console would respond to that.

jerf 9y ago
Ah, yes, the "human element", the same thing that leads people to believe they can beat a chess AI by "confusing it" by moving randomly. Still a surprisingly popular belief despite how easy it is to test the theory.
- balls187 9y ago
  Didn't the inverse happen, Chess AI made a bunch of seemingly random bizzare moves, which confused their human opponents?
  - jerf 9y ago
    Are you thinking of AlphaGo? http://www.killtenrats.com/2016/03/12/alphago/ http://www.killtenrats.com/2016/03/12/alphago/
    - balls187 9y ago
      That's probably it.
      - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
        You're probably thinking of Kasparov vs Deep Blue, the rematch. Kasparov was freaked out by a move he couldn't understand the motive for, bit assumed the computer did it for a reason. Wired magazine claims it may have been a bug.
mackal 9y ago
Been Heck show also console verified the TAS (they ran a TASBot like machine to play) The score has also been achieved by humans on real hardware.

Superleroy 9y ago

Exactly, they calculated the best possible time and found out that 5.51 is not even possible. Todd Rogers however has multiple impossible scores which are still considered "records" even though they can't possibly be obtained, some of them are stupidly obvious, like games in which the score increases in steps of five, yet he has a number not evenly dividable by five and such stuff. I guess nobody really knows why he still holds these records.

tomku 9y ago

You're exactly correct about the kind of analysis that was done. The code was analyzed, and the game was played frame-by-frame in an emulator to demonstrate perfect play. I believe some members of the speedrunning community also ran brute-force searches of the input space to make sure there wasn't some kind of obscure glitch that could trigger that wasn't obvious from the code. The reason that Twin Galaxies didn't accept that analysis is because they're run by members of a clique of old-school gamers who stayed behind when the speedrunning community abandoned TG, and Todd Rogers is part of that clique. The analysis was largely done by Omnigamer, who is a well-respected speedrunner outside of TG but isn't part of the clique. TG's staff chose to believe their own in-group rather than a evidence-based challenge from an outsider until their hand was forced by a viral Youtube video[1] calling them out. This kind of behavior isn't new for Twin Galaxies. They have a long history of mismanagement and corruption. Most of the times/scores posted on their site lack any publicly-viewable proof because until very recently, proof only had to be shown to TG staff "referees" so that people could keep their special techniques secret from the competition. Modern speedrunning eschews secrecy and requires publicly-viewable video proof for all runs. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e-H4sEHB54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e-H4sEHB54

aaron695 9y ago

He claimed he had a hack were he could start in a high gear (which seems untrue) Which was enough to muddy the waters for a bit.