5 ms·

> Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Where on earth did you get this idea? Are you suggesting Eu

by olavk 9y ago

> Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Where on earth did you get this idea? Are you suggesting European countries does not have police or intelligence agencies performing surveillance?

mrtksn 9y ago
I'm not suggesting that. The idea is that if a country can't do mass surveillance on it's own people due to political reasons, still can just let an ally do it and get that information from that ally as a part of information sharing agreement.
- simias 9y ago
  I can believe that it happens in some cases but I doubt it would make a lot of sense to do it for the mass surveillance of the population, if only because it would also make it extremely easy to do large scale industrial espionage. I'm pretty sure Germany wouldn't want the USA to have access to all of its trade and industrial secrets for instance. At least I would require a better source than "if I remember correctly" in order to be convinced.
  - mrtksn 9y ago
    It doesn't have to be binary. Sure they wouldn't want to let USA complete access, so they can spend their time keeping the US espionage on the desired domain and everyone happy and politicians elected.
    - simias 9y ago
      Do you have anything particular in mind or are you just guessing? This is all very vague and smells faintly of tinfoil-hattery. Not that I don't believe that the USA are heavily involved in Europe and cooperate pretty tightly with European intelligence services but the original question was about mass surveillance of the citizens. For example how do you explain the GDRP if the point is to let the USA snoop on European citizens?
      - mrtksn 9y ago
        I don't remember where exactly I read about this, but I recall that it was an opinion peace based on the NSA leaks. Anyway, there's the Five Eyes alliance that does it, why wouldn't there be an arrangement between EU and USA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes >"Documents leaked by Snowden in 2013 revealed that the FVEY have been spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent restrictive domestic regulations on surveillance of citizens."
        simias 9y ago
        That's fair but the only complicit European country in the Five Eyes is the UK (and, well, not for long anymore I suppose). I don't think I'm willing to jump to the conclusion that "if the UK does it then certainly the other european countries must do the same". The UK<->USA relationship is rather unique. At this point you need to look on a country-by-country basis, I doubt there's a secret EU-level agreement to let the USA spy on EU citizens. For instance I could believe that the Germans might consider it, if only because they have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to international intelligence and diplomacy. That being said industrial espionage would be an obvious drawback. On the other hand I really don't expect French intelligence to accept such a scheme. French has its own network for international intelligence and is perfectly capable of spying on its own citizens if it wants to. There's simply too much to lose letting the USA in unchecked. As for the rest of Europe it's also hard to make a simple guess. Some countries like Poland are historically very USA-friendly and might accept something like that. Others on the other hand align much more with Russia nowadays and might be more willing to collaborate with the FSB than the CIA. So I still don't buy the "european countries let the USA spy on their citizens". It's too much of a leap considered the evidence we have.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - iand 9y ago
    What about https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-spy-agencies-mass-surveillance-snowden https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-... On your second point, industrial espionage is, I suspect, a large factor in determining which countries should be spied on. Does anyone really think that Boeing doesn't get competitor info from US agencies?
    - simias 9y ago
      Right, but that's my point. Your article is about the USA spying on European citizens (with the complicity of the UK) and the governments of these countries complained (at least publicly): >The German, French and Spanish governments have reacted angrily to reports based on National Security Agency (NSA) files leaked by Snowden since June, revealing the interception of communications by tens of millions of their citizens each month. The parent was saying that European countries are complicit and actually want the USA to spy on their citizens so that they can recover the intelligence indirectly. >Does anyone really think that Boeing doesn't get competitor info from US agencies? Not me at least, which is exactly why I don't expect that the french and german governments for instance to be perfectly fine with the USA spying on Airbus's employees for instance.
      - iand 9y ago
        From http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/15/world/emerging-role-for-the-cia-economic-spy.html http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/15/world/emerging-role-for-th... > Spying on allies for economic advantage is a crucial new assignment for the C.I.A. now that American foreign policy is focused on commercial interests abroad. President Clinton made economic intelligence a high priority of his Administration, specifically information to protect and defend American competitiveness, technology and financial security in a world where an economic crisis can spread across global markets in minutes. Or, more recently, from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/25907502 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/25907502 >US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has alleged the National Security Agency engaged in industrial espionage. >In an interview with Germany's ARD TV channel, the former NSA contractor said the agency would spy on big German companies that competed with US firms. And the US spying on trade talk negotiations from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/26/germany-eu-us-trade-nsa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/26/germany-eu-us-... >Der Spiegel said files obtained by whistleblower Edward Snowden showed that the NSA spied on the EU in New York after it moved to new rooms in autumn 2012 and that the NSA runs a bugging programme in more than 80 embassies and consulates worldwide called the "Special Collection Service", which has "little or nothing to do with warding off terrorists" Other countries too, such as France, from http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1993/Espionage-Takes-Toll-On-Air-Show-U-S-Firms-On-Guard/id-4206823c63d58fd956f26fd5efc9a777 http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1993/Espionage-Takes-Toll-On-Ai... > Gone are the Cold War days when one Soviet agent reportedly tried to stick a gyroscope in his pocket during one trade fair. But a Russian spy official and a former chief of French intelligence said in recent interviews that that their agents were involved in industrial espionage.
vuln 9y ago
This is nothing new. The US alphabet soup boys will tap right on the other side of the imaginary border. It's the same reason they fly people out of the US to interrogate them.
mmjaa 9y ago
Germanys intelligence agencies, for example, are entirely beholden to the US, and have been since the end of WW2.
icebraining 9y ago
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes#Domestic_espionage_sharing_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes#Domestic_espionage_s... for the Commonwealth version. According to the Guardian and other sources, there's something called the 14-Eyes, which is a working agreement between the FVEY and the SIGINT organizations of nine other countries, including multiple European ones, like Germany: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/02/nsa-portrait-total-surveillance https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/02/nsa-portrait-t...
letsgetphysITal 9y ago
The Five-Eyes nations wholesale spy on each other and share the data they collect. They can't spy on their own populations, so they collect the data of foreign nations and then swap it for data on their own citizens. It's been widely known since... Hell, Echelon was "revealed" in the 90s?
- icebraining 9y ago
  In the late 80s, when Duncan Campbell wrote an exposition for the New Statesman: http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/newstatesman-1988/They've%20got%20it%20taped.pdf http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/n...
maze-le 9y ago
It is not so far fetched as it sounds. We had a parlamentary inquiry after the Snowden relevations. The result of 4 Years work is a lenghty document detailing[0] (among other things) How BND and NSA work together on analysis and raw data processing. That does not mean that BND needs the NSA to bend the law (that one they can do very well on their own), but the cooperation between the 2 organisations is such that the bulk of analysis is done in data centers in the US, simply because the german intelligence services do not have the nessessary processing power. One of the results is that the german intelligence services will get more resources to do analysis on their own in the near future. [0]: https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2017/06/1812850-ungeschwaerzt-markiert.pdf https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2017/06/1812850-ungesc... (page 484 ff.)

by olavk 9y ago

mrtksn 9y ago

I'm not suggesting that. The idea is that if a country can't do mass surveillance on it's own people due to political reasons, still can just let an ally do it and get that information from that ally as a part of information sharing agreement.

simias 9y ago
I can believe that it happens in some cases but I doubt it would make a lot of sense to do it for the mass surveillance of the population, if only because it would also make it extremely easy to do large scale industrial espionage. I'm pretty sure Germany wouldn't want the USA to have access to all of its trade and industrial secrets for instance. At least I would require a better source than "if I remember correctly" in order to be convinced.
- mrtksn 9y ago
  It doesn't have to be binary. Sure they wouldn't want to let USA complete access, so they can spend their time keeping the US espionage on the desired domain and everyone happy and politicians elected.
  - simias 9y ago
    Do you have anything particular in mind or are you just guessing? This is all very vague and smells faintly of tinfoil-hattery. Not that I don't believe that the USA are heavily involved in Europe and cooperate pretty tightly with European intelligence services but the original question was about mass surveillance of the citizens. For example how do you explain the GDRP if the point is to let the USA snoop on European citizens?
    - mrtksn 9y ago
      I don't remember where exactly I read about this, but I recall that it was an opinion peace based on the NSA leaks. Anyway, there's the Five Eyes alliance that does it, why wouldn't there be an arrangement between EU and USA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes >"Documents leaked by Snowden in 2013 revealed that the FVEY have been spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent restrictive domestic regulations on surveillance of citizens."
      - simias 9y ago
        That's fair but the only complicit European country in the Five Eyes is the UK (and, well, not for long anymore I suppose). I don't think I'm willing to jump to the conclusion that "if the UK does it then certainly the other european countries must do the same". The UK<->USA relationship is rather unique. At this point you need to look on a country-by-country basis, I doubt there's a secret EU-level agreement to let the USA spy on EU citizens. For instance I could believe that the Germans might consider it, if only because they have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to international intelligence and diplomacy. That being said industrial espionage would be an obvious drawback. On the other hand I really don't expect French intelligence to accept such a scheme. French has its own network for international intelligence and is perfectly capable of spying on its own citizens if it wants to. There's simply too much to lose letting the USA in unchecked. As for the rest of Europe it's also hard to make a simple guess. Some countries like Poland are historically very USA-friendly and might accept something like that. Others on the other hand align much more with Russia nowadays and might be more willing to collaborate with the FSB than the CIA. So I still don't buy the "european countries let the USA spy on their citizens". It's too much of a leap considered the evidence we have.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- iand 9y ago
  What about https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-spy-agencies-mass-surveillance-snowden https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-... On your second point, industrial espionage is, I suspect, a large factor in determining which countries should be spied on. Does anyone really think that Boeing doesn't get competitor info from US agencies?
  - simias 9y ago
    Right, but that's my point. Your article is about the USA spying on European citizens (with the complicity of the UK) and the governments of these countries complained (at least publicly): >The German, French and Spanish governments have reacted angrily to reports based on National Security Agency (NSA) files leaked by Snowden since June, revealing the interception of communications by tens of millions of their citizens each month. The parent was saying that European countries are complicit and actually want the USA to spy on their citizens so that they can recover the intelligence indirectly. >Does anyone really think that Boeing doesn't get competitor info from US agencies? Not me at least, which is exactly why I don't expect that the french and german governments for instance to be perfectly fine with the USA spying on Airbus's employees for instance.
    - iand 9y ago
      From http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/15/world/emerging-role-for-the-cia-economic-spy.html http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/15/world/emerging-role-for-th... > Spying on allies for economic advantage is a crucial new assignment for the C.I.A. now that American foreign policy is focused on commercial interests abroad. President Clinton made economic intelligence a high priority of his Administration, specifically information to protect and defend American competitiveness, technology and financial security in a world where an economic crisis can spread across global markets in minutes. Or, more recently, from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/25907502 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/25907502 >US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has alleged the National Security Agency engaged in industrial espionage. >In an interview with Germany's ARD TV channel, the former NSA contractor said the agency would spy on big German companies that competed with US firms. And the US spying on trade talk negotiations from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/26/germany-eu-us-trade-nsa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/26/germany-eu-us-... >Der Spiegel said files obtained by whistleblower Edward Snowden showed that the NSA spied on the EU in New York after it moved to new rooms in autumn 2012 and that the NSA runs a bugging programme in more than 80 embassies and consulates worldwide called the "Special Collection Service", which has "little or nothing to do with warding off terrorists" Other countries too, such as France, from http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1993/Espionage-Takes-Toll-On-Air-Show-U-S-Firms-On-Guard/id-4206823c63d58fd956f26fd5efc9a777 http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1993/Espionage-Takes-Toll-On-Ai... > Gone are the Cold War days when one Soviet agent reportedly tried to stick a gyroscope in his pocket during one trade fair. But a Russian spy official and a former chief of French intelligence said in recent interviews that that their agents were involved in industrial espionage.

vuln 9y ago

This is nothing new. The US alphabet soup boys will tap right on the other side of the imaginary border. It's the same reason they fly people out of the US to interrogate them.

mmjaa 9y ago

Germanys intelligence agencies, for example, are entirely beholden to the US, and have been since the end of WW2.

icebraining 9y ago

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes#Domestic_espionage_sharing_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes#Domestic_espionage_s... for the Commonwealth version. According to the Guardian and other sources, there's something called the 14-Eyes, which is a working agreement between the FVEY and the SIGINT organizations of nine other countries, including multiple European ones, like Germany: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/02/nsa-portrait-total-surveillance https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/02/nsa-portrait-t...

letsgetphysITal 9y ago

The Five-Eyes nations wholesale spy on each other and share the data they collect. They can't spy on their own populations, so they collect the data of foreign nations and then swap it for data on their own citizens. It's been widely known since... Hell, Echelon was "revealed" in the 90s?

icebraining 9y ago
In the late 80s, when Duncan Campbell wrote an exposition for the New Statesman: http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/newstatesman-1988/They've%20got%20it%20taped.pdf http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/n...

maze-le 9y ago

It is not so far fetched as it sounds. We had a parlamentary inquiry after the Snowden relevations. The result of 4 Years work is a lenghty document detailing[0] (among other things) How BND and NSA work together on analysis and raw data processing. That does not mean that BND needs the NSA to bend the law (that one they can do very well on their own), but the cooperation between the 2 organisations is such that the bulk of analysis is done in data centers in the US, simply because the german intelligence services do not have the nessessary processing power. One of the results is that the german intelligence services will get more resources to do analysis on their own in the near future. [0]: https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2017/06/1812850-ungeschwaerzt-markiert.pdf https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2017/06/1812850-ungesc... (page 484 ff.)