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If you imprison people (violent or non-violent or even innocent) you may get less measurable violence. But perhaps only if you exclude imprisonment from your d

If you imprison people (violent or non-violent or even innocent) you may get less measurable violence. But perhaps only if you exclude imprisonment from your definitions of violence. That's one of the things ABCLAW is hinting at I think. I don't think it is the case, but it's worth considering.

mirimir 9y ago
> All in all, 15 percent of African-American men in the United States have been to prison (compared to about 6 percent of all adult men). But those figures reflect all men alive, including older men lucky enough to have escaped the great incarceration drive. For younger cohorts the risks are far higher. For boys born in 2001, the lifetime probability of incarceration is estimated to be 32 percent for young black men, 17 percent for Latinos, and 6 percent for whites. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/mass-incarceration-statistics-united-states https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/mass-incarceration-statis... That seems like a lot of violence. I wonder if Pinker includes that. Edit: To clarify, I consider state violence, even if legal punishment, to nonetheless be violence.
- ABCLAW 9y ago
  Pinker explicitly removes these from his analysis, stating that including them is confusing and only serves to allow people to attach 'violence' to things they dislike, and that physical violence is a large enough topic for a book. He may be right logistically regarding book writing, but he does not account for the effect of his narrowed scope in his conclusions, nor does he account for the extraction of morality in his definition with the attempt of his project in lauding the progress of humans as good.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    Ummm, "confusing"? I'd say more like "inconvenient" for his thesis. I mean, how is having my neighbor beat the crap out of me, and hold me hostage, any more violent than some cop doing the same?
    - ABCLAW 9y ago
      His words, not mine. I agree with you.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        Yes, I should have made that clear. And I agree with your comments.

mirimir 9y ago

> All in all, 15 percent of African-American men in the United States have been to prison (compared to about 6 percent of all adult men). But those figures reflect all men alive, including older men lucky enough to have escaped the great incarceration drive. For younger cohorts the risks are far higher. For boys born in 2001, the lifetime probability of incarceration is estimated to be 32 percent for young black men, 17 percent for Latinos, and 6 percent for whites. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/mass-incarceration-statistics-united-states https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/mass-incarceration-statis... That seems like a lot of violence. I wonder if Pinker includes that. Edit: To clarify, I consider state violence, even if legal punishment, to nonetheless be violence.

ABCLAW 9y ago
Pinker explicitly removes these from his analysis, stating that including them is confusing and only serves to allow people to attach 'violence' to things they dislike, and that physical violence is a large enough topic for a book. He may be right logistically regarding book writing, but he does not account for the effect of his narrowed scope in his conclusions, nor does he account for the extraction of morality in his definition with the attempt of his project in lauding the progress of humans as good.
- mirimir 9y ago
  Ummm, "confusing"? I'd say more like "inconvenient" for his thesis. I mean, how is having my neighbor beat the crap out of me, and hold me hostage, any more violent than some cop doing the same?
  - ABCLAW 9y ago
    His words, not mine. I agree with you.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      Yes, I should have made that clear. And I agree with your comments.