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These claims are based on simplistic spread sheet models. We have REAL WORLD DATA. The real world experience throughout europe and the USA shows net losses. I r

These claims are based on simplistic spread sheet models. We have REAL WORLD DATA. The real world experience throughout europe and the USA shows net losses. I repeat: if it worked the plants would be profitable and they would be going up without tax subsidies. Do you dispute this? Does the legal environment somehow prevent entrepreneurs throughout the western world from selling solar power into the grid?

bufferoverflow 9y ago
Nothing prevents anybody from selling solar power. Lots of solar farms are live and many more are being built. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaic_power_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaic_power_sta... (note how the biggest ones are all new)
telchar 9y ago
If you think tax subsidies have anything to do with EROI (i.e. EROEI) you are very confused. This is calculated on the basis of Wh/Wh. Simple dimensional analysis shows that $ doesn't show up at all in the calculation. Of course tax subsidies are useful to bootstrap on a $ cost basis, but with current costs and rate of falling costs even that will soon become unnecessary (let's get rid of fossil fuel subsidies to make this "real world data" comparison fair though).
- maoistinquisitr 9y ago
  Cash flows are in fact a reasonable proxy for energy in many cases. Manually tallying up the uses of energy and materials is a handwaving exercise at best, but net losses of cash in the energy industry indicate with certainty that you not yielding net energy to society as an enterprise.
chimmy_chonga 9y ago
> they would be going up without tax subsidies. They don't even build Walmarts without tax subsidies these days.
politician 9y ago
Can you review this [1] and ELI5 why solar seems to work in China, but the Sun doesn't shine enough to make the economics work in the west according to your research? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China
Brakenshire 9y ago
> I repeat: if it worked the plants would be profitable and they would be going up without tax subsidies Right, so on that basis these bids below the grid rate indicate that they now work?
- ams6110 9y ago
  Bids are speculations. Bidders are very frequently unable to actually deliver. See pretty much any highway project ever.
  - Brakenshire 9y ago
    Agreed on that.
dtech 9y ago
Can you link real world data? Are externalities (CO2 output) taken into considerations in your unsourced REAL WORLD DATA!!~!
rconti 9y ago
I would have bought a house without a tax subsidy. But there is one, so I'm sure as hell taking it.
the_why_of_y 9y ago
> if it worked the plants would be profitable and they would be going up without tax subsidies. No, it's the other way around: fossil fuels are subsidized by governments to the tune of $4.8 trillion a year, so solar needs to be subsidized as well to be able to compete. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=42940.0 http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=42940.0

bufferoverflow 9y ago

Nothing prevents anybody from selling solar power. Lots of solar farms are live and many more are being built. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaic_power_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaic_power_sta... (note how the biggest ones are all new)

telchar 9y ago

If you think tax subsidies have anything to do with EROI (i.e. EROEI) you are very confused. This is calculated on the basis of Wh/Wh. Simple dimensional analysis shows that $ doesn't show up at all in the calculation. Of course tax subsidies are useful to bootstrap on a $ cost basis, but with current costs and rate of falling costs even that will soon become unnecessary (let's get rid of fossil fuel subsidies to make this "real world data" comparison fair though).

maoistinquisitr 9y ago
Cash flows are in fact a reasonable proxy for energy in many cases. Manually tallying up the uses of energy and materials is a handwaving exercise at best, but net losses of cash in the energy industry indicate with certainty that you not yielding net energy to society as an enterprise.

chimmy_chonga 9y ago

> they would be going up without tax subsidies. They don't even build Walmarts without tax subsidies these days.

politician 9y ago

Can you review this [1] and ELI5 why solar seems to work in China, but the Sun doesn't shine enough to make the economics work in the west according to your research? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China

Brakenshire 9y ago

> I repeat: if it worked the plants would be profitable and they would be going up without tax subsidies Right, so on that basis these bids below the grid rate indicate that they now work?

ams6110 9y ago
Bids are speculations. Bidders are very frequently unable to actually deliver. See pretty much any highway project ever.
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  Agreed on that.

dtech 9y ago

Can you link real world data? Are externalities (CO2 output) taken into considerations in your unsourced REAL WORLD DATA!!~!

rconti 9y ago

I would have bought a house without a tax subsidy. But there is one, so I'm sure as hell taking it.

the_why_of_y 9y ago

> if it worked the plants would be profitable and they would be going up without tax subsidies. No, it's the other way around: fossil fuels are subsidized by governments to the tune of $4.8 trillion a year, so solar needs to be subsidized as well to be able to compete. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=42940.0 http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=42940.0