5 ms·

> I like being able to run 20 year old games natively if I feel like it. (e.g. Diablo 1, released in 1996, can still run without virtualization on Windows 10. S

by ctrl-j 9y ago

> I like being able to run 20 year old games natively if I feel like it. (e.g. Diablo 1, released in 1996, can still run without virtualization on Windows 10. Sometimes.) As I pointed out below, this isn't even 20 year old games. Name a release in the last year - if it's not a first-party Microsoft title, chances are it's Win32. You mentioned Diablo 1, well with polaris Diablo III would need virtualization. Fortnight? PUBG? Overwatch? All are Win32 games. Excited for monster hunter in Q3? That'll be virtualized in polaris. This is going nowhere.

TheRealPomax 9y ago
Can you explain what you understand will be going wrong when you imply that games needing virtualization will somehow "go nowhere"? Is there something about OS-managed virtualization (rather than application-managed virtualization) that you know that the rest of us don't? Why would a virtualized API even be noticable for modern games, which offload almost all the work to the GPU already anyway?
- Strom 9y ago
  Only technical people have a clue what virtualization even means. Generally speaking, gamers haven't even heard of the word. Thus whatever virtualization soulution is used must be pretty much automatic. However if Windows already automatically handles this, then why mention that there's no Win32 support? Either people can keep launching their games on Steam or they can't. If they can't, then this new Windows won't win any fans among gamers. Even if there's automatic virtualization in place, as soon as you're losing fps, gamers won't be happy.
  - wmgries 9y ago
    Security. I believe Centennial apps don't have the ability to actually modify the system - they just think they can via the container interface. Worth noting: the Xbox One has used virtualization since day one for video games. Done right, gamers shouldn't even have to know that this is what's happening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software#System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software#Syste... Disclaimer: Microsoft employee, not working on Windows 10 (aka I have no idea how accurate this is).
    - jakebasile 9y ago
      Yeah, that sounds like it might preclude any modding (as is the case with current UWP games) which will be a hard pass from me and many other PC gamers (I don't even mod much, usually just fan patches). The Xbox One has come up a couple times here, and I don't think the people bringing it up understand that the Xbox is the exact opposite of what PC gamers want their PC to be. It's closed down, controlled, and limited compared to a full PC. It may be more secure, but often the beneficiary of that security is not the user but the console manufacturer, game publishers, and game developers.
    - wmgries 9y ago
      @jakebasile clearly a legitimate problem to be solved. The Xbox reference is merely to show that virtualized solutions can be very high performance. I've never had my Xbox drop frames or anything that would indicate it's not running with the full power of the machine.
  - nailer 9y ago
    Seamless virtualization is done on xbone, which is an Intel AMD64 chip emulating a PPC to play 360 games
- ctrl-j 9y ago
  Many games are still CPU bound. May applications are still CPU bound. Notice all the threads lately about how applications have so much more latency now than 20-30 years ago? Virtualization does have impact, and games still max out the hardware available to them. If this is 100% seamless virtualization that doesn't make anything noticeably slower, it might be acceptable for business users. I doubt it's going to have zero impact though... I highly doubt it's going to fly for power-users and gamers.
TylerE 9y ago
> if it's not a first-party Microsoft title, chances are it's Win32. 64 bit games, and even 64bit _only_ games are increasingly common. Turns out for many modern AAA games 3GB of RAM isn't enough.
- earenndil 9y ago
  64-bit games still use the win32 api.
  - rbanffy 9y ago
    It's a bit confusing that win32 is 64-bit savvy since, at least, its DEC Alpha release.
pjmlp 9y ago
Easy, Age of Empires remaster is UWP only, others owned by Microsoft Game Studios will certainly follow. All Windows APIs relevant for game developers are available to UWP apps.
- megaman22 9y ago
  Hmmm. The only way I could get behind this is if there is a remaster of Close Combat 2: A Bridge Too Far. I think Slytherine owns the franchise now, but it was definitely a Microsoft game at the beginning.

by ctrl-j 9y ago

TheRealPomax 9y ago

Can you explain what you understand will be going wrong when you imply that games needing virtualization will somehow "go nowhere"? Is there something about OS-managed virtualization (rather than application-managed virtualization) that you know that the rest of us don't? Why would a virtualized API even be noticable for modern games, which offload almost all the work to the GPU already anyway?

Strom 9y ago
Only technical people have a clue what virtualization even means. Generally speaking, gamers haven't even heard of the word. Thus whatever virtualization soulution is used must be pretty much automatic. However if Windows already automatically handles this, then why mention that there's no Win32 support? Either people can keep launching their games on Steam or they can't. If they can't, then this new Windows won't win any fans among gamers. Even if there's automatic virtualization in place, as soon as you're losing fps, gamers won't be happy.
- wmgries 9y ago
  Security. I believe Centennial apps don't have the ability to actually modify the system - they just think they can via the container interface. Worth noting: the Xbox One has used virtualization since day one for video games. Done right, gamers shouldn't even have to know that this is what's happening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software#System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software#Syste... Disclaimer: Microsoft employee, not working on Windows 10 (aka I have no idea how accurate this is).
  - jakebasile 9y ago
    Yeah, that sounds like it might preclude any modding (as is the case with current UWP games) which will be a hard pass from me and many other PC gamers (I don't even mod much, usually just fan patches). The Xbox One has come up a couple times here, and I don't think the people bringing it up understand that the Xbox is the exact opposite of what PC gamers want their PC to be. It's closed down, controlled, and limited compared to a full PC. It may be more secure, but often the beneficiary of that security is not the user but the console manufacturer, game publishers, and game developers.
  - wmgries 9y ago
    @jakebasile clearly a legitimate problem to be solved. The Xbox reference is merely to show that virtualized solutions can be very high performance. I've never had my Xbox drop frames or anything that would indicate it's not running with the full power of the machine.
- nailer 9y ago
  Seamless virtualization is done on xbone, which is an Intel AMD64 chip emulating a PPC to play 360 games
ctrl-j 9y ago
Many games are still CPU bound. May applications are still CPU bound. Notice all the threads lately about how applications have so much more latency now than 20-30 years ago? Virtualization does have impact, and games still max out the hardware available to them. If this is 100% seamless virtualization that doesn't make anything noticeably slower, it might be acceptable for business users. I doubt it's going to have zero impact though... I highly doubt it's going to fly for power-users and gamers.

TylerE 9y ago

> if it's not a first-party Microsoft title, chances are it's Win32. 64 bit games, and even 64bit _only_ games are increasingly common. Turns out for many modern AAA games 3GB of RAM isn't enough.

earenndil 9y ago
64-bit games still use the win32 api.
- rbanffy 9y ago
  It's a bit confusing that win32 is 64-bit savvy since, at least, its DEC Alpha release.

pjmlp 9y ago

Easy, Age of Empires remaster is UWP only, others owned by Microsoft Game Studios will certainly follow. All Windows APIs relevant for game developers are available to UWP apps.

megaman22 9y ago
Hmmm. The only way I could get behind this is if there is a remaster of Close Combat 2: A Bridge Too Far. I think Slytherine owns the franchise now, but it was definitely a Microsoft game at the beginning.