13 ms·

TomTom ditches map updates for some sat-navs

94 points by edward 9y ago

kawsper 9y ago
Bad experiences like these will most likely drive (no pun intended) more of their customers away from dedicated GPS-devices and onto using smartphones instead.
- g09980 9y ago
  Why do people (outside of special applications perhaps... planes? military?) still use these devices? Had one in a rental car recently, after battling with it for a bit reverted to trusty iOS Google Maps.
  - seren 9y ago
    I still have one in my car that I rarely use. When you have really low/bad network coverage (narrow valley for example), having a device that got the map pre-loaded is helpful. GPS coverage is far bigger than 3G/4G still. But it is more of a backup, and I would not buy a new one.
    - thaumasiotes 9y ago
      > When you have really low/bad network coverage (narrow valley for example), having a device that got the map pre-loaded is helpful. This may be an advantage of a dedicated GPS device over Google Maps, but it's certainly not an advantage of a dedicated GPS device over a smartphone.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    I don't know where you live, but for me Google Maps is absolutely dire, to a point where it's actually dangerous(telling me to turn wrong way into one way street, ignoring no-turn signs etc) plus the streets are wrong and/or missing(two streets which are in reality separated by a lawn appear connected in google maps so obviously the app shows me that I can drive through there fine). TomTom/Garmin/Navteq/AutoMapa are so much better than smartphone maps it's not even funny.
    - dawnerd 9y ago
      You should load up maps on your desktop and suggest edits. They’re pretty responsive with fixing things.
      - gsnedders 9y ago
        They've got much, much worse at fixing things since they stopped relying on the community (through MapMaker) to review edits. Where things used to get fixed in hours, they now often take months.
        dawnerd 9y ago
        I haven't seen that yet. My new street was added within a few hours. I've been able to suggest edits to locations and have them updated instantly too. Might help that I'm a "local guide" whatever that means.
    - wycy 9y ago
      Where does this happen? I've never had Google Maps do this. For me it even accurately knows what time of day roads are closed or become unidirectional.
      - gambiting 9y ago
        North East UK.
  - jvzr 9y ago
    Anecdotal data: my parents (aged ~60) refuse to use their smartphones for GPS and have a dedicated device for this. They only use for long distance travels and never optimize their shorter travels (one could argue the long-distance travels aren't optimized as well, as TomTom cannot compete with Waze regarding time optimization, in my experience)
  - flatline 9y ago
    Google maps (at least on iOS) changes their interface frequently and needlessly. I have not seen a meaningful update to the UI in maybe the last three years. The ability to mute the volume is the only real change that comes to mind and that's not really a UI enhancement. Rather, features useful to me jump around through the various UI layers seemingly at random. The map display changes without warning. Sometimes these changes help me navigate, sometimes just the opposite. Each time the app updates I'm never sure what I'm going to find or if I'm going to have to take five minutes out of my trip just to figure out what this shuffle of the deck brought. I swear Google employs a host of front-end engineers with no real purpose in life. A dedicated device with a predictable and unchanging UI could be very useful. The problem is that the convenience of the phone still outweighs the drawbacks for me.
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    I do because I don't have data on my phone.
  - dingaling 9y ago
    An in-car unit is permanently powered and can maintain a warm-fix for much faster positioning than a cold-fix from my phone, which takes about five minutes with a good view.
  - dingaling 9y ago
    An in-car unit is permanently powered and can maintain a warm-fix for much faster positioning than a cold-fix from my phone, which takes about five minutes with a good view. Plus the advantages of a large, external antenna. Instead of holding my phone out of the sunroof...
    - mi100hael 9y ago
      What phone do you have that could possibly require 5 mins and an arm out the sunroof just for a GPS fix?
      - Symbiote 9y ago
        Many phones with data service switched off, which might be the case when driving abroad.
        Bud 9y ago
        Data service has nothing to do with a GPS fix. Nothing at all. No data is used. GPS does not require any internet connection at all.
        ropiku 9y ago
        You are technically true but if you don't have internet connection to get the almanac (future position of satellites) you have to wait 12.5 minutes to download it very slowly from the GPS itself. That's what parent was saying. It works but the time-to-fix is very high.
        mynewtb 9y ago
        AGPS uses data service to get the almanac.
        Bud 9y ago
        Thank you. I learned something from this. How often does that almanac need to be updated, however?
  - aluhut 9y ago
    Bigger display, better UI, faster GPS fix, data costs on mobile, doesn't want to unnecessary charge the mobiles battery in unnecessary intervals (other battery issues) is what comes into my mind.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    I have a host of issues with google maps. The routing and the maps itself are certainly great, but I have my phones language set to English and it attempts to use English pronounciation for all road names. In germany, this makes for a moderately hilarious guessing game (what street would that be), but when I cross over to Poland, things get unbearable. Every time you get into a tunnel, the phone looses the GPS fix, making routing in tunnels worthless. There’s a few places in Berlin where you need to take an on/off ramp in a tunnel or right at the end and a built in Navi reliably routes you, but a map on the phone cannot. It doesn’t work in regions without good cellular connectivity either.
    - mantas 9y ago
      > The routing and the maps itself are certainly great Depends on your location. In my whereabouts, Google Maps routinely routes to "shortcuts" on dirt roads. They seem to use 70km/h legal limit for those roads. Thankyouverymuch, but I'll take next exit, do 10km extra and take fully paved route...
      - Rebelgecko 9y ago
        Whatever algorithm they use is sometimes a bit too greedy. There have been times where I've been able to manually drag my path to another freeway and make it faster
        mantas 9y ago
        What is weird, they even don't follow easiest to calculate path. Let's say there's an officially signed route following top-tier highways. Nope, it's suggesting a random dirt road. I'm pretty sure it'd be easier to hardcode the "official" routes and then check alternatives whenever there's a problem (crash, slow traffic, etc) on it. Nope, "official" one is all green and no constructions and crashes. Yet it's still suggesting the random dirt route :/
      - reaperducer 9y ago
        In southern California, I've had Google Maps take me along roads that gradually turned from pavement to gravel to dirt and then deep sand. Dirt road navigation isn't unusual where I was, so going forward made sense. But once I ended up in sand before I could find a safe place to turns around and got a "Transmission overheat" warning message on my dashboard. Thanks, Google!
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    - Operation outside of reliable cell connection. - A call or text at an inopportune time doesn't inhibit navigation. - The dedicated UI is simpler and doesn't change; my GPS is about 8 years old and has stayed the same the whole time. Every Maps app I've had has changed a dozen damn times since then; I value the stable interface more than the bullshit bells and whistles. It needs to show me directions and be otherwise unobtrusive; a phone doesn't do that. - Sometimes I turn my phone off to eliminate distractions - Sometimes I'll hand my phone to my kid to play a game A phone does a thousand things, but none of them as well as a dedicated device can do 1 or 2 items from the list.
    - reaperducer 9y ago
      > - Operation outside of reliable cell connection. This. I just spent the entire weekend outside of cell range. And I can't always download maps in advance because I rarely know where I'm going from day to day.
      - Const-me 9y ago
        > I can't always download maps in advance because I rarely know where I'm going from day to day. Can’t you download offline maps for the whole country? On my phone I have two sets of offline maps for my + neighbor countries. Microsoft is free, Garmin was one time purchase. Both work OK without Internet.
        lightbulbjim 9y ago
        Yeah, I'm not sure why it's such a common complaint that phone service is required for navigation. There are plenty of apps available which let you download whole countries/regions for very cheap, and can do all of their routing offline.
        exodust 9y ago
        Because people will typically use Google maps, and Google only provides one month of offline map data before it demands to be put online again to "refresh" that data. Honestly, the way Google changes the goal posts and rearranges the furniture within its own apps, I stay well clear of that mess when I need consistency and reliability. My phone remains a phone when I'm driving and need an uninterrupted, non-internet, non-phone navigation device.
  - ars 9y ago
    Because my phone is used for other things on long drives, so I like having a dedicated devices that's just GPS. It's on a suction cup on the car and stays there - I don't take it in the house with me. Unlike a phone, you also don't need a data connection to navigate anywhere in North America. I may have to buy a cheap phone that does nothing except Google maps, and leave it in the car (but fear of thieves means I can't leave it on the windshield all the time, unlike a GPS which no one seems to steal anymore). Good job killing your market TomTom - why would anyone buy a device from you ever again? I actually have a built-in device in the car, but I don't use it, and instead use the TomTom device because the car one blocks input if the car is in motion. I guess whoever made it has never driven with a passenger.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    The UX on smartphone GPS apps is awful. My 10 year old car allows me to do things like search for gas stations and rest stops on my route and does a much better job of working with previous destinations. Cell phone GPS/Nav apps are slow and awkward to use and offer little in the way of useful features beyond simple turn-by-turn navigation.
    - menage 9y ago
      Google Maps has supported on-the-route searching for a while - it will give you a bunch of options on the map, indicating how much of a detour each requires.
      - mwexler 9y ago
        Another good one: when tapping on the Garmins, it tells you the nearest address, which can be a godsend when you are on the phone trying to meet someone. TomTom isn't as good at this, but Google and Apple maps both fail this. Try finding the nearest address to you, while driving a route, without tons of butterfingering.
      - mulmen 9y ago
        Cool, I did not know that was there. The UI in my car categorizes points of interest then shows me a list sorted by range. It's a lot easier to parse while driving but the Google Maps functionality is good. Over a long distance I could see it being a bit hard to decipher. I believe my car also allows filtering by top-tier stations only. I did not notice this functionality because I have learned to be very afraid of touching the screen while navigating with Google Maps for fear that the navigation will be cancelled and I will have to start my search over again.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    Why do people (outside of special applications perhaps... planes? military?) still use these devices? Strap your cell phone to the dashboard of my 1200cc on/off road motorcycle, take it down the Dalton Highway from Fairbanks, AK until the Arctic Ocean stops you (more accurately, British Petroleum will stop you). When you return, I'd like to know 1. how your navigation experience was with no cell connection until you get to Deadhorse and 2. After being beat to death bouncing down 900 miles of gravel road, does the phone even still work? I have lots of applications for GPS usage that have nothing to do with military use or an airplane, and I only use my phone in the car. Otherwise I probably need something with offline maps and less delicate than an iPhone. Without an unwieldy Otterbox case, phones are delicate little things not suited to harsh environments.
  - djsumdog 9y ago
    The UI on my Pioneer GPS from 2009 was way better than the current UIs on Google, Here and Waze maps. I like the distance indicator as you approach a turn. I suspect these UI elements are patented and Google/Here don't want to pay to incorporate them into their apps. After having and Android head unit, I think I'd rather go back to a Pioneer dedicated nav unit with Bluetooth connection to my cell/music.
jondiggsit 9y ago
TIL TomTom is still in business.
- gambiting 9y ago
  IMHO TomTom devices and maps are leaps and bounds over everyone else. The 5xxx series(with built-in GSM for live traffic and speed cameras) ss easily the best sat nav system I have ever used and I can recommend it to anyone without hesitation.
- gramakri 9y ago
  It's still useful in rental cars. Travellers may not have a working phone number to use mobile phone maps.
  - gruez 9y ago
    offline maps? google and here both offer that
    - gsnedders 9y ago
      Google don't in all regions. > Note: Downloading offline maps isn't available in some regions because of contractual limitations, language support, address formats, or other reasons.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Did Google start offering off-line maps with navigation and pathfinding support?
      - DandyDev 9y ago
        Yes, I use offline maps for navigation all the time when on holiday
      - gervase 9y ago
        This was first rolled out in 2015: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/navigate-and-search-real-world-online.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/MKuf+(Official+Google+Blog) https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/navigate-and-search-...
yitchelle 9y ago
I am currently shopping for a new car. Most of the salefolks I came across actually recommended us to stay away from dedicated GPS devices, (built into the car or stand alone). They actually recommend for us to use our smart phone and coupled it with Apple CarPlay or Android Auto.
- organsnyder 9y ago
  Our new car happened to include nav in the trim package we wanted. It is nice having it integrated with the vehicle (it doesn't have CarPlay or Android Auto), and available regardless of cell phone status. However, I'm not going to spend hundreds of dollars per year for map updates.
  - rhombocombus 9y ago
    That's insane. It costs a couple hundred dollars a year to update aircraft Instrument flight GPS maps (and EVERYTHING is expensive on an airplane), it's galling that automakers would deign to charge so much for a product that almost all of us have available for free on our phones.
  - reaperducer 9y ago
    You're lucky you can pay for map updates. The navigation system for my car has NEVER been updated by the manufacturer. It's simply not an option. Which means it was out of date the day the car was built. Every now and again I'll look at the screen and see my car floating across a barren landscape. That's how I know the road I'm on was built after 2013.
- Grazester 9y ago
  This. Dedicated units get updates slower, aren't as good as using your Google map with Android auto and will eventually stop receiving updates.
- wehadfun 9y ago
  Having both is nice. For the most part Android Auto is great but sometimes cord doesn't work, phone dead,... the integrated on is good enough
thephilsproject 9y ago
Some product descriptions continue to state that maps on the devices will update multiple times a year "for the lifetime of your device". On its website, TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device: "ie: the period of time TomTom supports your device with updates, services, content or accessories. A device will have reached the end of its life when none of these are available any more." Updates will be available for the lifetime, which is defined as until we stop providing updates. (Unsure how to quote)
- sschueller 9y ago
  I thought legally in the US lifetime means at least 25 years.
  - Waterluvian 9y ago
    They out to outright ban "lifetime" claims and only allow claims of specific lengths of time. This is a great example of why they're dangerous to consumers.
    - mikestew 9y ago
      It's already been done with lifetime fitness memberships in the U. S. It's been a long time, like when this middle-agester was a kid and my Mom bought one, but what would happen is fitness places would then go out of business. I was too young to discern if the places just ran off with the money, or genuinely went bankrupt, but point is no more lifetime memberships. They don't need to ban these claims, they just need to define "lifetime", either the lifetime of the device or lifetime of the owner. Or, as with the Tilley hats I mentioned in another comment on this article, as long as you have one in your hand, whether you're the one that bought it or not. Oh, sure, have some well-defined exclusions for abuse and the like. Run your Tilley hat through a woodchipper, and no new hat for you. (But if you run your hat through an elephant, they'll honor it if you're willing to dig it out of the manure. True story, they claim.)
- Spooky23 9y ago
  It’s amazing how companies are able to get away with bullshit like this with virtual goods. There was an article in our local newspaper about a dude who bought lifetime brakes for his Mustang in like 1970 from JC Penney (!). To this day, he’s still getting free brakes, I think Firestone took on the business. With tech stuff, they would declare the lifetime to the be average lifetime of a brake pad!
rb808 9y ago
I really like having a dedicated GPS box and keep my phone free. What would be great is dash mounted GPS that uses my main phone as a hot spot for traffic updates. Actually I can use an old phone for that now that I think of it.
dspillett 9y ago
> On its website, TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device: "ie: the period of time TomTom supports your device with updates, services, content or accessories. A device will have reached the end of its life when none of these are available any more." This is very weasily legalise and quite contrary to what the customer is likely to interpret "lifetime" as meaning. They guaranteed the device would be kept updated for its useful life, but as soon as they stop updates the device's useful life is over so they can arbitrarily define what "lifetime" of the product is long after its sale. If the term has not been adequately and obviously defined to the customer in this way they might be liable for refunds on the bases of the product not matching reasonable expectations. Even if it has been defined that way in EULAs and similar for all time, there may still be valid claims against them for deceptive advertising and bait & switch. Of course they'll probably get away with it though, the same way for many years ISPs got away with using the word "unlimited" to mean "unlimited except for any limits we currently apply and might decide to apply at any time in the future", though not without losing some face. I own a TomTom sports watch which I've recommended to people in the past. I will no longer give unguarded recommendations[1] and when it comes time to replace it[2] I will seriously research competing options and most likely discount TomTom products unless there is an astronomical cost/value difference in their favour. [1] if any recommendation at all [2] which will be soon due to an event involving unintended high-velocity contact between myself and the pavement which has resulted in a damaged screen and probably a reduction in moisture resistance
- deleted 9y ago
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- oh_sigh 9y ago
  I got bit by this same thing recently. I bought new windows for my house, and a selling point was they came with a lifetime warranty against manufacturer and installation defects. I only found out after reading the fine print that "lifetime" in this sense meant 10 years
  - stephen_g 9y ago
    Wow, pretty sure that would be totally against our consumer law in my country (Australia)...
oldcynic 9y ago
> TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device Not the lifetime they think it is, but the same "lifetime" that every manufacturer of products uses. It's not like you're going to get a much longer life from a phone as they also turn off updates at some point. What is a little surprising is people still haven't learnt to a) distrust all MarketingSpeak and b) Google before purchase to find out how long the "new" product has been out.
- nothrabannosir 9y ago
  > What is a little surprising is people still haven't learnt to a) distrust all MarketingSpeak… I hear you, it’s frustrating that companies keep getting away with this. On the other hand: people don’t live forever. There are many thousands of new people each day. Each of whom have to relearn all the unwritten rules of society, while tribal knowledge withers with every changing of the guard. This is an inherent inefficiency in a market free of regulations, where consumers learn whom and what to (dis)trust. I think, at some point, it’s more zen to accept certain behavioural quirks of the market as axioms and focus on how to work with them, instead of against them. Sorry for turning this into yet another anti libertarian rant :)
mi100hael 9y ago
Me before reading article: "these are probably 15-year-old devices with 2 users still clinging on" > Many of the affected sat-navs are still available online at a number of retailers. Well OK then. No more buying TomTom.
grecy 9y ago
How any company thinks it can continue to make money selling maps is beyond me. I have just driven the length of West Africa from Morocco to South Africa[1] using Open Street Maps loaded onto a $50 Garmin GPS[2]. The accuracy and completeness of the maps is nothing short of staggering. The tiniest town in Burkina Faso, Gabon or the DRC has every single road, walking track and intersection, perfectly mapped. It's the same for all the countries. On the entire 40,000 miles I can count on one hand the number of times the OSM map did not perfectly reflect the real world. It happened so infrequently it was always cause for celebration when it did. [1]http://theroadchoseme.com http://theroadchoseme.com [2] http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/ http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/
- throwawayfinal 9y ago
  This begins to fall apart in major cities without OSM volunteers ingesting city roadwork feeds. Of course, something like tomtom wouldn't represent that ideally either without a radio data or cell service...
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    Waze used to (still does? I don't know as I don't use Waze any more) display dots on paths and as you drove it scored you and also used the data to confirm maps. Is there anything like this in the OSM world?
    - dublinben 9y ago
      Drivers in the field can record GPS tracks, and upload/share them through the OSM website. These can then be used either to directly create that road, or by remote mappers to help align satellite imagery, and then remote map visible roads in the area.
    - rmc 9y ago
      Not really. But OSM is a wiki. So there is no central body to "confirm" changes. If you want, you can just edit things as you go. You can even edit OSM on your phone (e.g. with Vespucci), so you could drive along a road, think "this is totally wrong on OSM", pull over, get out your phone and correct it.
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ris 9y ago
This is where purchasers of Garmin sat navs are laughing because their map format was reverse-engineered years ago and OpenStreetMap on garmin satnavs is quite a well trodden path: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin
- netsharc 9y ago
  It makes me wish I had more time, to start a project to reverse engineer the TomTom format. And maybe even generalize it for all sorts of devices, for example car makers also have their proprietary formats (probably they just use their supplier's format, whichever 3rd party that is).
  - ars 9y ago
    The best part of the TomTom map is what they call "IQ Routes" where they have timing info for each road, for each 15 minutes of the day. Without that there's little point in using it.
- photojosh 9y ago
  Yep, I even have routable maps on my wrist! (Epix) The UI is super clunky, but it's a great backup for a phone, and the routing is way faster than anything going online.
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jayflux 9y ago
I’ve had the Tom Tom app for many years now (iOS) and have always had free updates. I’m guessing it’s harder to support dedicated devices that will eventually be hard to maintain than it is to just update an app on Android iOS so this news is no surprise to me. Is there much point in buying. A dedicated sat nav anymore? It’s literaly cheaper in the long run to use an app
- banana_giraffe 9y ago
  The Tom Tom app no longer has updates. They've moved to a new free app that limits it's usage to a set number of miles a month, with a subscription fee if you want unlimited miles.
  - photojosh 9y ago
    Didn't see this comment before posting much the same thing further up. I haven't used the TomTom app in years although I've had it since the Treo 650 and then iPhone. Fired it up again. Subscription fee is now $20/yr but they gave all owners of the old app 3 years free. That means I've got 11 years of updates for my original $80 purchase. Not too shabby.
btilly 9y ago
It is easy to criticize, but I see their point. Over time we are adding more and more information and detail to mapping data. How does that work out if your older device does not have the resources to store/manipulate that much data? They have no good options. They can send the update, and break the device. Or leave the old data be and let the device slowly downgrade. Or pay a fortune to replace who knows how many devices. Or try to maintain two versions of their data indefinitely.
- beached_whale 9y ago
  Thing about map data is that they can just not include some layers in the output product. the roads/water bodies/poi... can be filtered in most mapping systems. even the detail levels.
- pebers 9y ago
  They can ship a downscaled version of the data for older devices. Standard algorithms like Douglas-Peucker are simple to implement and the quality is bound to be good enough (certainly better than the alternative, which here is nothing at all). Yes, that's some work. But a build pipeline to produce varying qualities of assets is not something TomTom should be a stranger to.
  - btilly 9y ago
    How do you choose which points of interest to throw away when downscaling? That data set is continuing to become richer and more complete over time.
- toast0 9y ago
  Reduce the scope of the maps; allow country by country downloads, except for US, where you can allow state by state. Chances are, I'm not taking my gps outside of the western US, and if I were, I would have some time to futz with it first.
jacquesm 9y ago
This sucks because TomToms voice navigation is hands down the winner of everything out there and their display is placed much better (on the windshield) than the in-car navigation systems. I like dedicated devices that do one thing and do it well.
- Viper007Bond 9y ago
  Even better than Google Maps? It tells you what lane to be in and everything.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Google maps tends to drown you in un-necessary information. 'turn right on such and such a street' which is then un-intelligeble because the synth doesn't understand the local pronounciation. Vs tomtom: turn right in 150 meters shorter, and much easier. Besides, if I knew what those streets were called I'd likely not need a navigator in the first place...
- philfrasty 9y ago
  „...voice navigation is hands down the winner of everything...“ not sure if serious?! Bought my grandmother the most expensive TomTom model (GO 6200 for approx $400) last year, great big display, hands down the worst voice assistant I have ever used. „Landsberger Street, Munich“ was turned into „Luxembourg“ or similiar. Google Maps voice recognition seems far superior to me.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    I don't see what voice recognition has to do with it (maybe you meant voice synthesis), but my tomtom doesn't read out the street names at all, just works with distances and turns, so maybe that particular model (or maybe newer versions of the tomtom firmware) have that 'feature'? I'll consider this a warning to wait as long as I can with upgrading my oldie, it's still working well though. 7 years and counting...
mwexler 9y ago
I love my TomTom. With a locked phone (Thanks, AT&T), I can't afford to abuse data when I travel. My TomTom works in both US and Europe with free map updates, and has gotten me through mountains, valleys, cities and towns. I also use CityMaps2Go and download various cities, but I will very much miss my TomTom when it stops selling to consumers and updating maps. (Or I will, at least until I get reasonable data costs internationally.)
LorenPechtel 9y ago
100+ comments and nobody missed what's really going on: The old units don't have the resources for the new maps. I've got a Garmin and can see where they are coming from: A few updates ago my unit demanded that a SD card be installed before it would load an update because the internal memory wasn't enough.
Feniks 9y ago
Lifetime subscription. Well I guess if you use a goldfish as your standard lol. I do feel a bit for TomTom. Bought a €120 nav set 3 years ago and the thing still works like a charm. Haven't spent a dime because of free updates and the road network here is already matured so nothing changes much.
knodi123 9y ago
I got a rental in new zealand, and the included tomtom sent me to the hospital. Seriously, I was following directions to an RV park, but wound up in front of a hospital. The RV park was a kilometer away. It was also woefully (and I mean extra-frustratingly) out of date in Dunedin. And yet it was online with a fast 3g connection 8 hours a day. Point being - looks like maybe they skipped map updates a while ago. :-P
- knodi123 9y ago
  oh, another funny one - was heading to the botanical gardens in hamilton (a pretty big and highly populated city!) and it navigated me to the gated employees-only service entrance, not to the public entrance about 2km away on another side of the park.
DonHopkins 9y ago
Maps are big and expensive, and so is the bandwidth require to distribute them. So it's not a huge surprise that TomTom's weaseling out of updating maps on old devices. When I worked at TomTom around 2007-2009, they had just gone deep into debt buying Tele Atlas to acquire those maps for a hell of a lot more money than they originally expected to pay: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747015 >The stunt that Garmin pulled of was, in my opinion, an ingenious head-fake that cost TomTom an enormous amount of money, almost a billion euros, and at the same time saved Garmin a whole lot of money by enabling them to renegotiate a better deal with Navteq, who was faced with losing their major customer if they didn't lower their prices. TomTom was paying Akamai a lot of money in bandwidth charges so customers could download subscriptions of bigger maps more often. So I developed and tested a prototype using BitTorrent DNA to distribute them, but Akamai ended up lowering their prices because they didn't want to lose all those fees to BitTorrent. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7601083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7601083 >It turned out that BitTorrent would save TomTom about a million euros the first year, and more each year, since TomTom was distributing larger and larger maps, more frequently by subscription, and of course they hoped to get more customers over time. (See: http://www.sadtrombone.com http://www.sadtrombone.com ...) >But then all of a sudden, out of the blue, Akamai unilaterally lowered the prices they were charging TomTom, saving us a lot of money immediately, presumably to prevent us from switching to BitTorrent (after I had made a bit of a scene at Akamai's GDC booth, in front Travis Kalanick and their sales people, about just having talked Bran Cohen and acquired a quote and beta testing agreement from BitTorrent, and insisted that Akamai tell me what their prices were and when we could start testing -- that may have motivated them to unilaterally lower their prices). >So in the end, TomTom middle management decided to can the BitTorrent project, in spite of the fact that it was the TomTom founder Pieter Geelen's idea in the first place, and he'd been micromanaging the entire project and user interface all along, to make sure it would not just save us money, but also not have a negative impact on usability or customer perception.
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m-p-3 9y ago
Thank god for OSM volunteers. My Garmin GPS which is totally out of support can still use OSM data that has been converted to a compatible format from here. https://www.openmapchest.org https://www.openmapchest.org

94 points by edward 9y ago

Bad experiences like these will most likely drive (no pun intended) more of their customers away from dedicated GPS-devices and onto using smartphones instead.

g09980 9y ago
Why do people (outside of special applications perhaps... planes? military?) still use these devices? Had one in a rental car recently, after battling with it for a bit reverted to trusty iOS Google Maps.
- seren 9y ago
  I still have one in my car that I rarely use. When you have really low/bad network coverage (narrow valley for example), having a device that got the map pre-loaded is helpful. GPS coverage is far bigger than 3G/4G still. But it is more of a backup, and I would not buy a new one.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    > When you have really low/bad network coverage (narrow valley for example), having a device that got the map pre-loaded is helpful. This may be an advantage of a dedicated GPS device over Google Maps, but it's certainly not an advantage of a dedicated GPS device over a smartphone.
- gambiting 9y ago
  I don't know where you live, but for me Google Maps is absolutely dire, to a point where it's actually dangerous(telling me to turn wrong way into one way street, ignoring no-turn signs etc) plus the streets are wrong and/or missing(two streets which are in reality separated by a lawn appear connected in google maps so obviously the app shows me that I can drive through there fine). TomTom/Garmin/Navteq/AutoMapa are so much better than smartphone maps it's not even funny.
  - dawnerd 9y ago
    You should load up maps on your desktop and suggest edits. They’re pretty responsive with fixing things.
    - gsnedders 9y ago
      They've got much, much worse at fixing things since they stopped relying on the community (through MapMaker) to review edits. Where things used to get fixed in hours, they now often take months.
      - dawnerd 9y ago
        I haven't seen that yet. My new street was added within a few hours. I've been able to suggest edits to locations and have them updated instantly too. Might help that I'm a "local guide" whatever that means.
  - wycy 9y ago
    Where does this happen? I've never had Google Maps do this. For me it even accurately knows what time of day roads are closed or become unidirectional.
    - gambiting 9y ago
      North East UK.
- jvzr 9y ago
  Anecdotal data: my parents (aged ~60) refuse to use their smartphones for GPS and have a dedicated device for this. They only use for long distance travels and never optimize their shorter travels (one could argue the long-distance travels aren't optimized as well, as TomTom cannot compete with Waze regarding time optimization, in my experience)
- flatline 9y ago
  Google maps (at least on iOS) changes their interface frequently and needlessly. I have not seen a meaningful update to the UI in maybe the last three years. The ability to mute the volume is the only real change that comes to mind and that's not really a UI enhancement. Rather, features useful to me jump around through the various UI layers seemingly at random. The map display changes without warning. Sometimes these changes help me navigate, sometimes just the opposite. Each time the app updates I'm never sure what I'm going to find or if I'm going to have to take five minutes out of my trip just to figure out what this shuffle of the deck brought. I swear Google employs a host of front-end engineers with no real purpose in life. A dedicated device with a predictable and unchanging UI could be very useful. The problem is that the convenience of the phone still outweighs the drawbacks for me.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  I do because I don't have data on my phone.
- dingaling 9y ago
  An in-car unit is permanently powered and can maintain a warm-fix for much faster positioning than a cold-fix from my phone, which takes about five minutes with a good view.
- dingaling 9y ago
  An in-car unit is permanently powered and can maintain a warm-fix for much faster positioning than a cold-fix from my phone, which takes about five minutes with a good view. Plus the advantages of a large, external antenna. Instead of holding my phone out of the sunroof...
  - mi100hael 9y ago
    What phone do you have that could possibly require 5 mins and an arm out the sunroof just for a GPS fix?
    - Symbiote 9y ago
      Many phones with data service switched off, which might be the case when driving abroad.
      - Bud 9y ago
        Data service has nothing to do with a GPS fix. Nothing at all. No data is used. GPS does not require any internet connection at all.
        ropiku 9y ago
        You are technically true but if you don't have internet connection to get the almanac (future position of satellites) you have to wait 12.5 minutes to download it very slowly from the GPS itself. That's what parent was saying. It works but the time-to-fix is very high.
        mynewtb 9y ago
        AGPS uses data service to get the almanac.
        Bud 9y ago
        Thank you. I learned something from this. How often does that almanac need to be updated, however?
- aluhut 9y ago
  Bigger display, better UI, faster GPS fix, data costs on mobile, doesn't want to unnecessary charge the mobiles battery in unnecessary intervals (other battery issues) is what comes into my mind.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  I have a host of issues with google maps. The routing and the maps itself are certainly great, but I have my phones language set to English and it attempts to use English pronounciation for all road names. In germany, this makes for a moderately hilarious guessing game (what street would that be), but when I cross over to Poland, things get unbearable. Every time you get into a tunnel, the phone looses the GPS fix, making routing in tunnels worthless. There’s a few places in Berlin where you need to take an on/off ramp in a tunnel or right at the end and a built in Navi reliably routes you, but a map on the phone cannot. It doesn’t work in regions without good cellular connectivity either.
  - mantas 9y ago
    > The routing and the maps itself are certainly great Depends on your location. In my whereabouts, Google Maps routinely routes to "shortcuts" on dirt roads. They seem to use 70km/h legal limit for those roads. Thankyouverymuch, but I'll take next exit, do 10km extra and take fully paved route...
    - Rebelgecko 9y ago
      Whatever algorithm they use is sometimes a bit too greedy. There have been times where I've been able to manually drag my path to another freeway and make it faster
      - mantas 9y ago
        What is weird, they even don't follow easiest to calculate path. Let's say there's an officially signed route following top-tier highways. Nope, it's suggesting a random dirt road. I'm pretty sure it'd be easier to hardcode the "official" routes and then check alternatives whenever there's a problem (crash, slow traffic, etc) on it. Nope, "official" one is all green and no constructions and crashes. Yet it's still suggesting the random dirt route :/
    - reaperducer 9y ago
      In southern California, I've had Google Maps take me along roads that gradually turned from pavement to gravel to dirt and then deep sand. Dirt road navigation isn't unusual where I was, so going forward made sense. But once I ended up in sand before I could find a safe place to turns around and got a "Transmission overheat" warning message on my dashboard. Thanks, Google!
- khedoros1 9y ago
  - Operation outside of reliable cell connection. - A call or text at an inopportune time doesn't inhibit navigation. - The dedicated UI is simpler and doesn't change; my GPS is about 8 years old and has stayed the same the whole time. Every Maps app I've had has changed a dozen damn times since then; I value the stable interface more than the bullshit bells and whistles. It needs to show me directions and be otherwise unobtrusive; a phone doesn't do that. - Sometimes I turn my phone off to eliminate distractions - Sometimes I'll hand my phone to my kid to play a game A phone does a thousand things, but none of them as well as a dedicated device can do 1 or 2 items from the list.
  - reaperducer 9y ago
    > - Operation outside of reliable cell connection. This. I just spent the entire weekend outside of cell range. And I can't always download maps in advance because I rarely know where I'm going from day to day.
    - Const-me 9y ago
      > I can't always download maps in advance because I rarely know where I'm going from day to day. Can’t you download offline maps for the whole country? On my phone I have two sets of offline maps for my + neighbor countries. Microsoft is free, Garmin was one time purchase. Both work OK without Internet.
      - lightbulbjim 9y ago
        Yeah, I'm not sure why it's such a common complaint that phone service is required for navigation. There are plenty of apps available which let you download whole countries/regions for very cheap, and can do all of their routing offline.
        exodust 9y ago
        Because people will typically use Google maps, and Google only provides one month of offline map data before it demands to be put online again to "refresh" that data. Honestly, the way Google changes the goal posts and rearranges the furniture within its own apps, I stay well clear of that mess when I need consistency and reliability. My phone remains a phone when I'm driving and need an uninterrupted, non-internet, non-phone navigation device.
- ars 9y ago
  Because my phone is used for other things on long drives, so I like having a dedicated devices that's just GPS. It's on a suction cup on the car and stays there - I don't take it in the house with me. Unlike a phone, you also don't need a data connection to navigate anywhere in North America. I may have to buy a cheap phone that does nothing except Google maps, and leave it in the car (but fear of thieves means I can't leave it on the windshield all the time, unlike a GPS which no one seems to steal anymore). Good job killing your market TomTom - why would anyone buy a device from you ever again? I actually have a built-in device in the car, but I don't use it, and instead use the TomTom device because the car one blocks input if the car is in motion. I guess whoever made it has never driven with a passenger.
- mulmen 9y ago
  The UX on smartphone GPS apps is awful. My 10 year old car allows me to do things like search for gas stations and rest stops on my route and does a much better job of working with previous destinations. Cell phone GPS/Nav apps are slow and awkward to use and offer little in the way of useful features beyond simple turn-by-turn navigation.
  - menage 9y ago
    Google Maps has supported on-the-route searching for a while - it will give you a bunch of options on the map, indicating how much of a detour each requires.
    - mwexler 9y ago
      Another good one: when tapping on the Garmins, it tells you the nearest address, which can be a godsend when you are on the phone trying to meet someone. TomTom isn't as good at this, but Google and Apple maps both fail this. Try finding the nearest address to you, while driving a route, without tons of butterfingering.
    - mulmen 9y ago
      Cool, I did not know that was there. The UI in my car categorizes points of interest then shows me a list sorted by range. It's a lot easier to parse while driving but the Google Maps functionality is good. Over a long distance I could see it being a bit hard to decipher. I believe my car also allows filtering by top-tier stations only. I did not notice this functionality because I have learned to be very afraid of touching the screen while navigating with Google Maps for fear that the navigation will be cancelled and I will have to start my search over again.
- mikestew 9y ago
  Why do people (outside of special applications perhaps... planes? military?) still use these devices? Strap your cell phone to the dashboard of my 1200cc on/off road motorcycle, take it down the Dalton Highway from Fairbanks, AK until the Arctic Ocean stops you (more accurately, British Petroleum will stop you). When you return, I'd like to know 1. how your navigation experience was with no cell connection until you get to Deadhorse and 2. After being beat to death bouncing down 900 miles of gravel road, does the phone even still work? I have lots of applications for GPS usage that have nothing to do with military use or an airplane, and I only use my phone in the car. Otherwise I probably need something with offline maps and less delicate than an iPhone. Without an unwieldy Otterbox case, phones are delicate little things not suited to harsh environments.
- djsumdog 9y ago
  The UI on my Pioneer GPS from 2009 was way better than the current UIs on Google, Here and Waze maps. I like the distance indicator as you approach a turn. I suspect these UI elements are patented and Google/Here don't want to pay to incorporate them into their apps. After having and Android head unit, I think I'd rather go back to a Pioneer dedicated nav unit with Bluetooth connection to my cell/music.

jondiggsit 9y ago

TIL TomTom is still in business.

gambiting 9y ago
IMHO TomTom devices and maps are leaps and bounds over everyone else. The 5xxx series(with built-in GSM for live traffic and speed cameras) ss easily the best sat nav system I have ever used and I can recommend it to anyone without hesitation.
gramakri 9y ago
It's still useful in rental cars. Travellers may not have a working phone number to use mobile phone maps.
- gruez 9y ago
  offline maps? google and here both offer that
  - gsnedders 9y ago
    Google don't in all regions. > Note: Downloading offline maps isn't available in some regions because of contractual limitations, language support, address formats, or other reasons.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Did Google start offering off-line maps with navigation and pathfinding support?
    - DandyDev 9y ago
      Yes, I use offline maps for navigation all the time when on holiday
    - gervase 9y ago
      This was first rolled out in 2015: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/navigate-and-search-real-world-online.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/MKuf+(Official+Google+Blog) https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/navigate-and-search-...

yitchelle 9y ago

I am currently shopping for a new car. Most of the salefolks I came across actually recommended us to stay away from dedicated GPS devices, (built into the car or stand alone). They actually recommend for us to use our smart phone and coupled it with Apple CarPlay or Android Auto.

organsnyder 9y ago
Our new car happened to include nav in the trim package we wanted. It is nice having it integrated with the vehicle (it doesn't have CarPlay or Android Auto), and available regardless of cell phone status. However, I'm not going to spend hundreds of dollars per year for map updates.
- rhombocombus 9y ago
  That's insane. It costs a couple hundred dollars a year to update aircraft Instrument flight GPS maps (and EVERYTHING is expensive on an airplane), it's galling that automakers would deign to charge so much for a product that almost all of us have available for free on our phones.
- reaperducer 9y ago
  You're lucky you can pay for map updates. The navigation system for my car has NEVER been updated by the manufacturer. It's simply not an option. Which means it was out of date the day the car was built. Every now and again I'll look at the screen and see my car floating across a barren landscape. That's how I know the road I'm on was built after 2013.
Grazester 9y ago
This. Dedicated units get updates slower, aren't as good as using your Google map with Android auto and will eventually stop receiving updates.
wehadfun 9y ago
Having both is nice. For the most part Android Auto is great but sometimes cord doesn't work, phone dead,... the integrated on is good enough

thephilsproject 9y ago

Some product descriptions continue to state that maps on the devices will update multiple times a year "for the lifetime of your device". On its website, TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device: "ie: the period of time TomTom supports your device with updates, services, content or accessories. A device will have reached the end of its life when none of these are available any more." Updates will be available for the lifetime, which is defined as until we stop providing updates. (Unsure how to quote)

sschueller 9y ago
I thought legally in the US lifetime means at least 25 years.
- Waterluvian 9y ago
  They out to outright ban "lifetime" claims and only allow claims of specific lengths of time. This is a great example of why they're dangerous to consumers.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    It's already been done with lifetime fitness memberships in the U. S. It's been a long time, like when this middle-agester was a kid and my Mom bought one, but what would happen is fitness places would then go out of business. I was too young to discern if the places just ran off with the money, or genuinely went bankrupt, but point is no more lifetime memberships. They don't need to ban these claims, they just need to define "lifetime", either the lifetime of the device or lifetime of the owner. Or, as with the Tilley hats I mentioned in another comment on this article, as long as you have one in your hand, whether you're the one that bought it or not. Oh, sure, have some well-defined exclusions for abuse and the like. Run your Tilley hat through a woodchipper, and no new hat for you. (But if you run your hat through an elephant, they'll honor it if you're willing to dig it out of the manure. True story, they claim.)
Spooky23 9y ago
It’s amazing how companies are able to get away with bullshit like this with virtual goods. There was an article in our local newspaper about a dude who bought lifetime brakes for his Mustang in like 1970 from JC Penney (!). To this day, he’s still getting free brakes, I think Firestone took on the business. With tech stuff, they would declare the lifetime to the be average lifetime of a brake pad!

rb808 9y ago

I really like having a dedicated GPS box and keep my phone free. What would be great is dash mounted GPS that uses my main phone as a hot spot for traffic updates. Actually I can use an old phone for that now that I think of it.

dspillett 9y ago

> On its website, TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device: "ie: the period of time TomTom supports your device with updates, services, content or accessories. A device will have reached the end of its life when none of these are available any more." This is very weasily legalise and quite contrary to what the customer is likely to interpret "lifetime" as meaning. They guaranteed the device would be kept updated for its useful life, but as soon as they stop updates the device's useful life is over so they can arbitrarily define what "lifetime" of the product is long after its sale. If the term has not been adequately and obviously defined to the customer in this way they might be liable for refunds on the bases of the product not matching reasonable expectations. Even if it has been defined that way in EULAs and similar for all time, there may still be valid claims against them for deceptive advertising and bait & switch. Of course they'll probably get away with it though, the same way for many years ISPs got away with using the word "unlimited" to mean "unlimited except for any limits we currently apply and might decide to apply at any time in the future", though not without losing some face. I own a TomTom sports watch which I've recommended to people in the past. I will no longer give unguarded recommendations[1] and when it comes time to replace it[2] I will seriously research competing options and most likely discount TomTom products unless there is an astronomical cost/value difference in their favour. [1] if any recommendation at all [2] which will be soon due to an event involving unintended high-velocity contact between myself and the pavement which has resulted in a damaged screen and probably a reduction in moisture resistance

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oh_sigh 9y ago
I got bit by this same thing recently. I bought new windows for my house, and a selling point was they came with a lifetime warranty against manufacturer and installation defects. I only found out after reading the fine print that "lifetime" in this sense meant 10 years
- stephen_g 9y ago
  Wow, pretty sure that would be totally against our consumer law in my country (Australia)...

oldcynic 9y ago

> TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device Not the lifetime they think it is, but the same "lifetime" that every manufacturer of products uses. It's not like you're going to get a much longer life from a phone as they also turn off updates at some point. What is a little surprising is people still haven't learnt to a) distrust all MarketingSpeak and b) Google before purchase to find out how long the "new" product has been out.

nothrabannosir 9y ago
> What is a little surprising is people still haven't learnt to a) distrust all MarketingSpeak… I hear you, it’s frustrating that companies keep getting away with this. On the other hand: people don’t live forever. There are many thousands of new people each day. Each of whom have to relearn all the unwritten rules of society, while tribal knowledge withers with every changing of the guard. This is an inherent inefficiency in a market free of regulations, where consumers learn whom and what to (dis)trust. I think, at some point, it’s more zen to accept certain behavioural quirks of the market as axioms and focus on how to work with them, instead of against them. Sorry for turning this into yet another anti libertarian rant :)

mi100hael 9y ago

Me before reading article: "these are probably 15-year-old devices with 2 users still clinging on" > Many of the affected sat-navs are still available online at a number of retailers. Well OK then. No more buying TomTom.

grecy 9y ago

How any company thinks it can continue to make money selling maps is beyond me. I have just driven the length of West Africa from Morocco to South Africa[1] using Open Street Maps loaded onto a $50 Garmin GPS[2]. The accuracy and completeness of the maps is nothing short of staggering. The tiniest town in Burkina Faso, Gabon or the DRC has every single road, walking track and intersection, perfectly mapped. It's the same for all the countries. On the entire 40,000 miles I can count on one hand the number of times the OSM map did not perfectly reflect the real world. It happened so infrequently it was always cause for celebration when it did. [1]http://theroadchoseme.com http://theroadchoseme.com [2] http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/ http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/

throwawayfinal 9y ago
This begins to fall apart in major cities without OSM volunteers ingesting city roadwork feeds. Of course, something like tomtom wouldn't represent that ideally either without a radio data or cell service...
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  Waze used to (still does? I don't know as I don't use Waze any more) display dots on paths and as you drove it scored you and also used the data to confirm maps. Is there anything like this in the OSM world?
  - dublinben 9y ago
    Drivers in the field can record GPS tracks, and upload/share them through the OSM website. These can then be used either to directly create that road, or by remote mappers to help align satellite imagery, and then remote map visible roads in the area.
  - rmc 9y ago
    Not really. But OSM is a wiki. So there is no central body to "confirm" changes. If you want, you can just edit things as you go. You can even edit OSM on your phone (e.g. with Vespucci), so you could drive along a road, think "this is totally wrong on OSM", pull over, get out your phone and correct it.

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ris 9y ago

This is where purchasers of Garmin sat navs are laughing because their map format was reverse-engineered years ago and OpenStreetMap on garmin satnavs is quite a well trodden path: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin

netsharc 9y ago
It makes me wish I had more time, to start a project to reverse engineer the TomTom format. And maybe even generalize it for all sorts of devices, for example car makers also have their proprietary formats (probably they just use their supplier's format, whichever 3rd party that is).
- ars 9y ago
  The best part of the TomTom map is what they call "IQ Routes" where they have timing info for each road, for each 15 minutes of the day. Without that there's little point in using it.
photojosh 9y ago
Yep, I even have routable maps on my wrist! (Epix) The UI is super clunky, but it's a great backup for a phone, and the routing is way faster than anything going online.

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jayflux 9y ago

I’ve had the Tom Tom app for many years now (iOS) and have always had free updates. I’m guessing it’s harder to support dedicated devices that will eventually be hard to maintain than it is to just update an app on Android iOS so this news is no surprise to me. Is there much point in buying. A dedicated sat nav anymore? It’s literaly cheaper in the long run to use an app

banana_giraffe 9y ago
The Tom Tom app no longer has updates. They've moved to a new free app that limits it's usage to a set number of miles a month, with a subscription fee if you want unlimited miles.
- photojosh 9y ago
  Didn't see this comment before posting much the same thing further up. I haven't used the TomTom app in years although I've had it since the Treo 650 and then iPhone. Fired it up again. Subscription fee is now $20/yr but they gave all owners of the old app 3 years free. That means I've got 11 years of updates for my original $80 purchase. Not too shabby.

btilly 9y ago

It is easy to criticize, but I see their point. Over time we are adding more and more information and detail to mapping data. How does that work out if your older device does not have the resources to store/manipulate that much data? They have no good options. They can send the update, and break the device. Or leave the old data be and let the device slowly downgrade. Or pay a fortune to replace who knows how many devices. Or try to maintain two versions of their data indefinitely.

beached_whale 9y ago
Thing about map data is that they can just not include some layers in the output product. the roads/water bodies/poi... can be filtered in most mapping systems. even the detail levels.
pebers 9y ago
They can ship a downscaled version of the data for older devices. Standard algorithms like Douglas-Peucker are simple to implement and the quality is bound to be good enough (certainly better than the alternative, which here is nothing at all). Yes, that's some work. But a build pipeline to produce varying qualities of assets is not something TomTom should be a stranger to.
- btilly 9y ago
  How do you choose which points of interest to throw away when downscaling? That data set is continuing to become richer and more complete over time.
toast0 9y ago
Reduce the scope of the maps; allow country by country downloads, except for US, where you can allow state by state. Chances are, I'm not taking my gps outside of the western US, and if I were, I would have some time to futz with it first.

jacquesm 9y ago

This sucks because TomToms voice navigation is hands down the winner of everything out there and their display is placed much better (on the windshield) than the in-car navigation systems. I like dedicated devices that do one thing and do it well.

Viper007Bond 9y ago
Even better than Google Maps? It tells you what lane to be in and everything.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Google maps tends to drown you in un-necessary information. 'turn right on such and such a street' which is then un-intelligeble because the synth doesn't understand the local pronounciation. Vs tomtom: turn right in 150 meters shorter, and much easier. Besides, if I knew what those streets were called I'd likely not need a navigator in the first place...
philfrasty 9y ago
„...voice navigation is hands down the winner of everything...“ not sure if serious?! Bought my grandmother the most expensive TomTom model (GO 6200 for approx $400) last year, great big display, hands down the worst voice assistant I have ever used. „Landsberger Street, Munich“ was turned into „Luxembourg“ or similiar. Google Maps voice recognition seems far superior to me.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  I don't see what voice recognition has to do with it (maybe you meant voice synthesis), but my tomtom doesn't read out the street names at all, just works with distances and turns, so maybe that particular model (or maybe newer versions of the tomtom firmware) have that 'feature'? I'll consider this a warning to wait as long as I can with upgrading my oldie, it's still working well though. 7 years and counting...

mwexler 9y ago

I love my TomTom. With a locked phone (Thanks, AT&T), I can't afford to abuse data when I travel. My TomTom works in both US and Europe with free map updates, and has gotten me through mountains, valleys, cities and towns. I also use CityMaps2Go and download various cities, but I will very much miss my TomTom when it stops selling to consumers and updating maps. (Or I will, at least until I get reasonable data costs internationally.)

LorenPechtel 9y ago

100+ comments and nobody missed what's really going on: The old units don't have the resources for the new maps. I've got a Garmin and can see where they are coming from: A few updates ago my unit demanded that a SD card be installed before it would load an update because the internal memory wasn't enough.

Feniks 9y ago

Lifetime subscription. Well I guess if you use a goldfish as your standard lol. I do feel a bit for TomTom. Bought a €120 nav set 3 years ago and the thing still works like a charm. Haven't spent a dime because of free updates and the road network here is already matured so nothing changes much.

knodi123 9y ago

I got a rental in new zealand, and the included tomtom sent me to the hospital. Seriously, I was following directions to an RV park, but wound up in front of a hospital. The RV park was a kilometer away. It was also woefully (and I mean extra-frustratingly) out of date in Dunedin. And yet it was online with a fast 3g connection 8 hours a day. Point being - looks like maybe they skipped map updates a while ago. :-P

knodi123 9y ago
oh, another funny one - was heading to the botanical gardens in hamilton (a pretty big and highly populated city!) and it navigated me to the gated employees-only service entrance, not to the public entrance about 2km away on another side of the park.

DonHopkins 9y ago

Maps are big and expensive, and so is the bandwidth require to distribute them. So it's not a huge surprise that TomTom's weaseling out of updating maps on old devices. When I worked at TomTom around 2007-2009, they had just gone deep into debt buying Tele Atlas to acquire those maps for a hell of a lot more money than they originally expected to pay: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747015 >The stunt that Garmin pulled of was, in my opinion, an ingenious head-fake that cost TomTom an enormous amount of money, almost a billion euros, and at the same time saved Garmin a whole lot of money by enabling them to renegotiate a better deal with Navteq, who was faced with losing their major customer if they didn't lower their prices. TomTom was paying Akamai a lot of money in bandwidth charges so customers could download subscriptions of bigger maps more often. So I developed and tested a prototype using BitTorrent DNA to distribute them, but Akamai ended up lowering their prices because they didn't want to lose all those fees to BitTorrent. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7601083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7601083 >It turned out that BitTorrent would save TomTom about a million euros the first year, and more each year, since TomTom was distributing larger and larger maps, more frequently by subscription, and of course they hoped to get more customers over time. (See: http://www.sadtrombone.com http://www.sadtrombone.com ...) >But then all of a sudden, out of the blue, Akamai unilaterally lowered the prices they were charging TomTom, saving us a lot of money immediately, presumably to prevent us from switching to BitTorrent (after I had made a bit of a scene at Akamai's GDC booth, in front Travis Kalanick and their sales people, about just having talked Bran Cohen and acquired a quote and beta testing agreement from BitTorrent, and insisted that Akamai tell me what their prices were and when we could start testing -- that may have motivated them to unilaterally lower their prices). >So in the end, TomTom middle management decided to can the BitTorrent project, in spite of the fact that it was the TomTom founder Pieter Geelen's idea in the first place, and he'd been micromanaging the entire project and user interface all along, to make sure it would not just save us money, but also not have a negative impact on usability or customer perception.

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m-p-3 9y ago

Thank god for OSM volunteers. My Garmin GPS which is totally out of support can still use OSM data that has been converted to a compatible format from here. https://www.openmapchest.org https://www.openmapchest.org