7 ms·

If anyone here hasn't played with plan9, I highly recommend it. It's no overstatement to say it's the best operating system ever designed.

__s 9y ago
Most operating systems are more evolved than designed
- kzrdude 9y ago
  Isn't that true for most complex systems overall, (software or otherwise)?
- Koshkin 9y ago
  Software is usually a product of both intelligent design and evolution, in varying proportions.
- Qwertious 9y ago
  Most operating systems, or the most popular operating systems? The most important distinction between evolution and design, IMO, is that evolution bars forethought, and any refactoring that trips local optima (which in this case, would be breaking backwards-compatibility). Popular OSes are popular mainly because of their backwards-compatibility and momentum, and are therefore typically unable to be redesigned in any non-evolution fashion.
pjmlp 9y ago
I kind of disagree, at least in what concerns the Plan 9 lineage, Inferno was way better. Sadly it appears most people just stop at the middle, instead of the last version of Plan 9's evolution.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  I'm not a huge fan of Limbo and most of the other changes aren't very compelling imo. I think plan9 is better.
  - hoopladler 9y ago
    I just went and read the wiki page to try and evaluate your statement, but I still don't get it. I mean, I like the distributing computing concept, but what makes Plan 9 especially interesting?
    - ddevault 9y ago
      Compared to Inferno? It's simpler. I think plan9 is great example of getting a lot done with a very simple design.
      - hoopladler 9y ago
        Sorry, I meant plan9 in general.
        ddevault 9y ago
        The kernel is simple and sanely designed and interfacing with it is done through the filesystem in, again, a very simple and sane way. Your displays are configured by a simple <10 line shell script at boot time that writes plaintext to a device file, rather than a gargantuan graphics stack that's controlled with binary device files and ioctls. Filesystem namespaces are lovely, and make the filesystem cleanly organized and customized to the logged in user's needs and desires. I have a little script that clears my current terminal window: `echo -n "" > /dev/text`. The libc is small and focused (non-POSIX), and there are only a handful of syscalls. The process model is really sane and straightforward as well. Playing an mp3 file is `mp3dec < file.mp3 > /dev/audio`. To open a TCP connection, you use the dial(3) function, which basically does the following: write "tcp!name!port" to /net/cs and read out "1.2.3.4!80" (/net/cs resolves the name), then you write "connect 1.2.3.4" to /net/tcp/clone and read out a connection ID, and open /net/tcp/:id/data which is now a full-duplex TCP stream. There's this emphasis on simple, sane ways of fulfilling tasks on plan9 that permeates the whole system. It's beautiful.
        hoopladler 9y ago
- f2f 9y ago
  I've always enjoyed your opinion on alternative operating systems and languages. I love plan9, I wore my thesis in it, but that was based on the knowledge that other distributed operating systems existed at the time, amoeba being the most fun to learn about. Now it's a wasteland... And I really would prefer to explore. I think better or worse isn't the important theme here. It's that we've lost variety...
  - bringtheaction 9y ago
    Distributed computing is being reborn in the crypto currency sphere. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years we will have something akin to plan9 or inferno composed from nodes on these networks? After all, at some point everything old becomes new again when it comes to computer technology.
    - brucephillips 9y ago
      What does it mean for an operating system to run on the blockchain?
      - spynxic 9y ago
        Operating System: - the software that supports a computer's basic functions, such as scheduling tasks, executing applications, and controlling peripherals. Blockchain: - A decentralized and distributed digital ledger that is used to record transactions across many computers so that the record cannot be altered retroactively without the alteration of all subsequent blocks and the collusion of the network.
        brucephillips 9y ago
        Is this supposed to answer my question?
        spynxic 9y ago
        No, just preface into their intended functions. Edit: One might question what the ledger tracks in terms of operating toward user needs as opposed to financial activity.
- maga_2020 9y ago
  I also feel that InfernoOS deserves better recognition and interest. From Inferno OS page [1] : >>>..As this is part of the underlying system, all applications gain these benefits automatically. 9P runs over various transport protocols including TCP/IP. 9P was originally developed for use with Plan 9 from Bell Labs. A simplified subset called Styx was used in Inferno for a few years, but now Inferno's protocol is exactly the same as 9P. Some manual pages and older papers still refer to Styx. <<< I think major constraint (or advantage, depending how you look at it) -- is that you can only use GO-like programming language, Limbo, to develop for it. No other language runtime is supported. [1] http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/design.html http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/design.html
zignd 9y ago
Would you care to elaborate on why you consider it so greatly well designed? I have always been curious about plan9, but would be nice to listen a bit about what makes it so distinguishable before getting my hands on it.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  I went into some detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254250
- revelation 9y ago
  It's never been widely used for anything, so there is none of that pesky practicality to demonstrate clearly it's just the same old.
dralley 9y ago
Redox OS borrows a lot of concepts from Plan 9, and iterates on them in some places.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  Can you elaborate on this?
  - executesorder66 9y ago
    Not OP but here's what I found: Everything is a URL [0][1] [0]https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compares_to_other_operating_systems.html https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compare... [1]https://doc.redox-os.org/book/design/url_scheme_resource/everything_is_a_url.html https://doc.redox-os.org/book/design/url_scheme_resource/eve...
ernst_klim 9y ago
I can't agree with that statement. Plan9 was interesting, though it was completely based on ``everything is a file'' abstraction and had no decent solution for dealing with graphics, sound, video/multimedia, input and so on. All this ``mapping bitmaps directly to and fro the framebuffer'' and ``just create a device file for keyboard input [1]'' sounds cool til you meet some real world need. I also think that old Smalltalk and Lisp systems (e.g. Xerox PARC) had a design much more suitable for the real world applications than this ``everything is a file'' idea. [1] https://marc.info/?l=9fans&m=111558695515846&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=9fans&m=111558695515846&w=2
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  There are certain use-cases for which plan9 is not useful. I don't think a solve-every-problem-poorly box is better than a solve-several-problems-well box. For the niches it services, plan9 is sublime.

__s 9y ago

Most operating systems are more evolved than designed

kzrdude 9y ago
Isn't that true for most complex systems overall, (software or otherwise)?
Koshkin 9y ago
Software is usually a product of both intelligent design and evolution, in varying proportions.
Qwertious 9y ago
Most operating systems, or the most popular operating systems? The most important distinction between evolution and design, IMO, is that evolution bars forethought, and any refactoring that trips local optima (which in this case, would be breaking backwards-compatibility). Popular OSes are popular mainly because of their backwards-compatibility and momentum, and are therefore typically unable to be redesigned in any non-evolution fashion.

pjmlp 9y ago

I kind of disagree, at least in what concerns the Plan 9 lineage, Inferno was way better. Sadly it appears most people just stop at the middle, instead of the last version of Plan 9's evolution.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
I'm not a huge fan of Limbo and most of the other changes aren't very compelling imo. I think plan9 is better.
- hoopladler 9y ago
  I just went and read the wiki page to try and evaluate your statement, but I still don't get it. I mean, I like the distributing computing concept, but what makes Plan 9 especially interesting?
  - ddevault 9y ago
    Compared to Inferno? It's simpler. I think plan9 is great example of getting a lot done with a very simple design.
    - hoopladler 9y ago
      Sorry, I meant plan9 in general.
      - ddevault 9y ago
        The kernel is simple and sanely designed and interfacing with it is done through the filesystem in, again, a very simple and sane way. Your displays are configured by a simple <10 line shell script at boot time that writes plaintext to a device file, rather than a gargantuan graphics stack that's controlled with binary device files and ioctls. Filesystem namespaces are lovely, and make the filesystem cleanly organized and customized to the logged in user's needs and desires. I have a little script that clears my current terminal window: `echo -n "" > /dev/text`. The libc is small and focused (non-POSIX), and there are only a handful of syscalls. The process model is really sane and straightforward as well. Playing an mp3 file is `mp3dec < file.mp3 > /dev/audio`. To open a TCP connection, you use the dial(3) function, which basically does the following: write "tcp!name!port" to /net/cs and read out "1.2.3.4!80" (/net/cs resolves the name), then you write "connect 1.2.3.4" to /net/tcp/clone and read out a connection ID, and open /net/tcp/:id/data which is now a full-duplex TCP stream. There's this emphasis on simple, sane ways of fulfilling tasks on plan9 that permeates the whole system. It's beautiful.
        hoopladler 9y ago
f2f 9y ago
I've always enjoyed your opinion on alternative operating systems and languages. I love plan9, I wore my thesis in it, but that was based on the knowledge that other distributed operating systems existed at the time, amoeba being the most fun to learn about. Now it's a wasteland... And I really would prefer to explore. I think better or worse isn't the important theme here. It's that we've lost variety...
- bringtheaction 9y ago
  Distributed computing is being reborn in the crypto currency sphere. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years we will have something akin to plan9 or inferno composed from nodes on these networks? After all, at some point everything old becomes new again when it comes to computer technology.
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    What does it mean for an operating system to run on the blockchain?
    - spynxic 9y ago
      Operating System: - the software that supports a computer's basic functions, such as scheduling tasks, executing applications, and controlling peripherals. Blockchain: - A decentralized and distributed digital ledger that is used to record transactions across many computers so that the record cannot be altered retroactively without the alteration of all subsequent blocks and the collusion of the network.
      - brucephillips 9y ago
        Is this supposed to answer my question?
        spynxic 9y ago
        No, just preface into their intended functions. Edit: One might question what the ledger tracks in terms of operating toward user needs as opposed to financial activity.
maga_2020 9y ago
I also feel that InfernoOS deserves better recognition and interest. From Inferno OS page [1] : >>>..As this is part of the underlying system, all applications gain these benefits automatically. 9P runs over various transport protocols including TCP/IP. 9P was originally developed for use with Plan 9 from Bell Labs. A simplified subset called Styx was used in Inferno for a few years, but now Inferno's protocol is exactly the same as 9P. Some manual pages and older papers still refer to Styx. <<< I think major constraint (or advantage, depending how you look at it) -- is that you can only use GO-like programming language, Limbo, to develop for it. No other language runtime is supported. [1] http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/design.html http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/design.html

zignd 9y ago

Would you care to elaborate on why you consider it so greatly well designed? I have always been curious about plan9, but would be nice to listen a bit about what makes it so distinguishable before getting my hands on it.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
I went into some detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254250
revelation 9y ago
It's never been widely used for anything, so there is none of that pesky practicality to demonstrate clearly it's just the same old.

dralley 9y ago

Redox OS borrows a lot of concepts from Plan 9, and iterates on them in some places.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
Can you elaborate on this?
- executesorder66 9y ago
  Not OP but here's what I found: Everything is a URL [0][1] [0]https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compares_to_other_operating_systems.html https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compare... [1]https://doc.redox-os.org/book/design/url_scheme_resource/everything_is_a_url.html https://doc.redox-os.org/book/design/url_scheme_resource/eve...

ernst_klim 9y ago

I can't agree with that statement. Plan9 was interesting, though it was completely based on ``everything is a file'' abstraction and had no decent solution for dealing with graphics, sound, video/multimedia, input and so on. All this ``mapping bitmaps directly to and fro the framebuffer'' and ``just create a device file for keyboard input [1]'' sounds cool til you meet some real world need. I also think that old Smalltalk and Lisp systems (e.g. Xerox PARC) had a design much more suitable for the real world applications than this ``everything is a file'' idea. [1] https://marc.info/?l=9fans&m=111558695515846&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=9fans&m=111558695515846&w=2

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
There are certain use-cases for which plan9 is not useful. I don't think a solve-every-problem-poorly box is better than a solve-several-problems-well box. For the niches it services, plan9 is sublime.