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It's one thing to suffer with pain needlessly, it's another if the treatment of pain could have long term harmful effects, e.g., addition to opioids. I had imp

It's one thing to suffer with pain needlessly, it's another if the treatment of pain could have long term harmful effects, e.g., addition to opioids. I had impacted wisdom teeth and needed dental surgery. The dentist gave me a couple of codeines to take home but I never took them. The day after the local anesthesia wore off was miserable, but it became easily manageable after that. I found a lot of times the fear of the pain was worse than the pain itself.

syshum 9y ago
This is why my individualism, and Self Ownership come it to play as I feel that should be my choice if I want to take the risk, it should be up to me if the pain is server enough to warrant opioids or not as I am the one experiencing the pain. Every person reacts differently to procedures and to pain, some people having their wisdom teeth removed may not be painful, others it might be terrible pain. It should be up to the individual as a adult to make those choices for themselves I am sure that will be an unpopular opinion given the state of society is that no one should be treated as adults and that governments or "others" should tell people have to live ... At multiple times in my life I have been given hydrocodone, I have almost never used the entire prescription, but when I needed them I would glad to have them. The idea that a 3rd party can tell me "ohh your pain is not that bad just live with it" when there is a easy solution to allow me not to live it it, well I find that morally reprehensible
- fastball 9y ago
  If you're paying for it, I agree with you. But that's not the case in Germany, as they have a single payer healthcare system. That "easy solution" costs other people money.
  - syshum 9y ago
    Which is why I also oppose single payer, but that is a whole other topic. The fact that Single Payer is used to make those justifications is one of my primary reasons to oppose it
    - pkilgore 9y ago
      Hows that? It's my understanding that in a single payer system you are still allowed to pay for whatever you want or buy supplemental insurance to cover types of care the baseline single payer system will not.
      - ams6110 9y ago
        I don't think this is the popular understanding of "single payer" by its advocates in the USA. They think it means "I get any medical care I want, any time, with no waiting, for free."
        eropple 9y ago
        This is a disingenuous characterization of single-payer advocacy in this country. Nobody-but-nobody claims scarcity doesn't exist; the single-payer argument is to deny that the fitness function for who-doesn't-die-from-preventable-disease should be the person with a bigger bank account.
        pkilgore 9y ago
        That's a patently ridiculous straw man. No single payer system in the world operates that way.
      - syshum 9y ago
        Easy, once there is even a "baseline" of health services that becomes a platform to start restricting and taxing other things deemed to effect health. Things like smoking, Soft Drinks, high fat or high sugar foods, exercise mandates, and a variety of other public policies around "health" become justified because of public funding for healthcare. Now I am sure most people including you are going to agree with these public policies but again I am an individualist and believe in personal choice and freedom rare in today world of Nanny State's and collectivism
        fastball 9y ago
        Smoking is not illegal in most places, and realistically there is an argument that it should be (at least in public) because you don't have a right to expose other people to your habit. I don't know a single country that has socialized medicine that has illegalized high fat/sugar products or has mandated exercise. If you could point me towards instances where single payer healthcare is being used to outlaw/force such things, I would much appreciate it.
  - tpush 9y ago
    Slight correction: Germany does not have single-payer healthcare.
    - germanier 9y ago
      But the public health insurance system (which covers 90% of the population) makes joint decisions (through broad guidelines) on what is covered. An economic assessment is always part of the decision. Representatives of doctors are heavily involved in the process as well. Gemeinsamer Bundesausschuss is the name of that body.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    Opioid painkillers aren’t necessarily particularly expensive. They are considerably more dangerous than NSAIDs, though, hence the reluctance to prescribe them where not absolutely necessary. It’s not a money thing.
- rscho 9y ago
  On an individual basis, good for you that you can handle yourself. You are indeed a victim of the majority. However, making opiates freely available would be catastrophic for society to a point that would dwarf the current epidemic. In other words, it is a shame that the system can't do better for you, but your point of view is selfish.
  - syshum 9y ago
    I disagree, having studied this topic for more than a decade most of the current epidemic problems, including the death toll can be more accurately attributed to prohibitionist policies as the "War on Drugs" than to any legal availability. On the topic of Society in General, the US War on Drugs has lead to an inordinate amount of abuse, loss of freedom, and the elimination or reduction of most constitutional protection. treating Addiction as a Crime is what is bad for society
- Karnickel 9y ago
  > it should be up to me if the pain is server enough to warrant opioids It is! You do get the drugs you need. If you actually ARE in pain. But this woman, as predicted by her doctor, was not. If you read the article, she did not have the pain, it was only fear of it. Society does have to pay the price in the end if people are given what they want. See the problem of over-subscription of anything from pain killers (in the US) to antibiotics. Not least, those drugs show up in ground water and in drinking water supplies, and water companies can't really filter that stuff out. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pharmaceuticals-in-the-water/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pharmaceuticals-i... https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/drugs-in-our-drinking-water#1 https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/drugs-in-our-dr... If you think "the levels are low - that is save", there is no scientific basis for such a statement. We have no clue what low-level exposure to drug cocktails does.
vinay427 9y ago
Not to mention, there are plenty of safer viable alternatives. Is ibuprofen or acetaminophen as effective at preventing pain as oxycodone for most people? Probably not, but they're good enough for most wisdom teeth extractions, a common operation that unfortunately results in many opioid addictions. I had some particularly difficult extractions so I took some ibuprofen for a few weeks to make eating manageable, but avoided the oxycodone-acetaminophen I was prescribed once I left the doctor's office. When I reported this, the nurse who checked in on me was surprisingly taken aback, but to me, the potential consequences of opioid use to better mitigate temporary pain seem irresponsibly high.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  Do dentists in the US actually give out opioid painkillers for wisdom teeth extraction?
  - syshum 9y ago
    10-12 years ago I would get small dose (5mg or less) Hydrocodone for an infected tooth or pre-root canal Today it is just high dose ibuprofen, luckily I have pretty good dental insurance now (did not in my late teens and early 20s) so I do not need the dentist for anything more than cleanings but I do think my luck that I went through that pain back then instead of now, taking high does IB would not have let me sleep back in those days as I had to wait for the Antibiotics to kill the infection before they could remove or fill the tooth, that took anywhere from 2 to 7 days (had 2 infected teeth a couple years apart, I was hard on my teeth in youth, a lesson learned the hard way)
  - vinay427 9y ago
    For what it's worth, I was prescribed the oxycodone-acetaminophen combination last month for an extraction of my four wisdom teeth in the US. My extractions were apparently some of the hardest in the surgeon's 30 years, so I'm not sure if this is the norm.

syshum 9y ago

This is why my individualism, and Self Ownership come it to play as I feel that should be my choice if I want to take the risk, it should be up to me if the pain is server enough to warrant opioids or not as I am the one experiencing the pain. Every person reacts differently to procedures and to pain, some people having their wisdom teeth removed may not be painful, others it might be terrible pain. It should be up to the individual as a adult to make those choices for themselves I am sure that will be an unpopular opinion given the state of society is that no one should be treated as adults and that governments or "others" should tell people have to live ... At multiple times in my life I have been given hydrocodone, I have almost never used the entire prescription, but when I needed them I would glad to have them. The idea that a 3rd party can tell me "ohh your pain is not that bad just live with it" when there is a easy solution to allow me not to live it it, well I find that morally reprehensible

fastball 9y ago
If you're paying for it, I agree with you. But that's not the case in Germany, as they have a single payer healthcare system. That "easy solution" costs other people money.
- syshum 9y ago
  Which is why I also oppose single payer, but that is a whole other topic. The fact that Single Payer is used to make those justifications is one of my primary reasons to oppose it
  - pkilgore 9y ago
    Hows that? It's my understanding that in a single payer system you are still allowed to pay for whatever you want or buy supplemental insurance to cover types of care the baseline single payer system will not.
    - ams6110 9y ago
      I don't think this is the popular understanding of "single payer" by its advocates in the USA. They think it means "I get any medical care I want, any time, with no waiting, for free."
      - eropple 9y ago
        This is a disingenuous characterization of single-payer advocacy in this country. Nobody-but-nobody claims scarcity doesn't exist; the single-payer argument is to deny that the fitness function for who-doesn't-die-from-preventable-disease should be the person with a bigger bank account.
      - pkilgore 9y ago
        That's a patently ridiculous straw man. No single payer system in the world operates that way.
    - syshum 9y ago
      Easy, once there is even a "baseline" of health services that becomes a platform to start restricting and taxing other things deemed to effect health. Things like smoking, Soft Drinks, high fat or high sugar foods, exercise mandates, and a variety of other public policies around "health" become justified because of public funding for healthcare. Now I am sure most people including you are going to agree with these public policies but again I am an individualist and believe in personal choice and freedom rare in today world of Nanny State's and collectivism
      - fastball 9y ago
        Smoking is not illegal in most places, and realistically there is an argument that it should be (at least in public) because you don't have a right to expose other people to your habit. I don't know a single country that has socialized medicine that has illegalized high fat/sugar products or has mandated exercise. If you could point me towards instances where single payer healthcare is being used to outlaw/force such things, I would much appreciate it.
- tpush 9y ago
  Slight correction: Germany does not have single-payer healthcare.
  - germanier 9y ago
    But the public health insurance system (which covers 90% of the population) makes joint decisions (through broad guidelines) on what is covered. An economic assessment is always part of the decision. Representatives of doctors are heavily involved in the process as well. Gemeinsamer Bundesausschuss is the name of that body.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  Opioid painkillers aren’t necessarily particularly expensive. They are considerably more dangerous than NSAIDs, though, hence the reluctance to prescribe them where not absolutely necessary. It’s not a money thing.
rscho 9y ago
On an individual basis, good for you that you can handle yourself. You are indeed a victim of the majority. However, making opiates freely available would be catastrophic for society to a point that would dwarf the current epidemic. In other words, it is a shame that the system can't do better for you, but your point of view is selfish.
- syshum 9y ago
  I disagree, having studied this topic for more than a decade most of the current epidemic problems, including the death toll can be more accurately attributed to prohibitionist policies as the "War on Drugs" than to any legal availability. On the topic of Society in General, the US War on Drugs has lead to an inordinate amount of abuse, loss of freedom, and the elimination or reduction of most constitutional protection. treating Addiction as a Crime is what is bad for society
Karnickel 9y ago
> it should be up to me if the pain is server enough to warrant opioids It is! You do get the drugs you need. If you actually ARE in pain. But this woman, as predicted by her doctor, was not. If you read the article, she did not have the pain, it was only fear of it. Society does have to pay the price in the end if people are given what they want. See the problem of over-subscription of anything from pain killers (in the US) to antibiotics. Not least, those drugs show up in ground water and in drinking water supplies, and water companies can't really filter that stuff out. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pharmaceuticals-in-the-water/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pharmaceuticals-i... https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/drugs-in-our-drinking-water#1 https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/drugs-in-our-dr... If you think "the levels are low - that is save", there is no scientific basis for such a statement. We have no clue what low-level exposure to drug cocktails does.

vinay427 9y ago

Not to mention, there are plenty of safer viable alternatives. Is ibuprofen or acetaminophen as effective at preventing pain as oxycodone for most people? Probably not, but they're good enough for most wisdom teeth extractions, a common operation that unfortunately results in many opioid addictions. I had some particularly difficult extractions so I took some ibuprofen for a few weeks to make eating manageable, but avoided the oxycodone-acetaminophen I was prescribed once I left the doctor's office. When I reported this, the nurse who checked in on me was surprisingly taken aback, but to me, the potential consequences of opioid use to better mitigate temporary pain seem irresponsibly high.

rsynnott 9y ago
Do dentists in the US actually give out opioid painkillers for wisdom teeth extraction?
- syshum 9y ago
  10-12 years ago I would get small dose (5mg or less) Hydrocodone for an infected tooth or pre-root canal Today it is just high dose ibuprofen, luckily I have pretty good dental insurance now (did not in my late teens and early 20s) so I do not need the dentist for anything more than cleanings but I do think my luck that I went through that pain back then instead of now, taking high does IB would not have let me sleep back in those days as I had to wait for the Antibiotics to kill the infection before they could remove or fill the tooth, that took anywhere from 2 to 7 days (had 2 infected teeth a couple years apart, I was hard on my teeth in youth, a lesson learned the hard way)
- vinay427 9y ago
  For what it's worth, I was prescribed the oxycodone-acetaminophen combination last month for an extraction of my four wisdom teeth in the US. My extractions were apparently some of the hardest in the surgeon's 30 years, so I'm not sure if this is the norm.