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I am probably in the age bracket that puts me in the 'old fashioned' end of the spectrum of HN readers, but I fully agree with the premise of the article. Craf

I am probably in the age bracket that puts me in the 'old fashioned' end of the spectrum of HN readers, but I fully agree with the premise of the article. Craftsmanship is a lost art form these days. While I admire, and respect the wishes of a lot of younger people in my industry these days to want to travel a lot, and build a business that can be operated anywhere, I think a lot of them don't yet have the realisation that anything you do day in day out, can become routine, boring and something that you will yearn to be 'free' from after a while.

wjn0 9y ago
> anything you do day in day out, can become routine, boring and something that you will yearn to be 'free' from after a while. You seem to both understand, and maybe have overcome at one time or another, this sentiment. Would you have any advice for someone who seems to experience this chronically?
- cyberferret 9y ago
  I guess I have bumped against this several times. Given my age (52), I think I have done so more times than someone who is 22. I shall use an acquaintance/client of mine that I have known for years as an illustration. A very successful businessman, he and his family have a love of the Balinese lifestyle, though they live here in Australia. His wealth and success meant that he could buy a huge property just outside town and turn it into a little 'mini Bali resort'. He had a beautiful artificial lagoon, plunge pools, thatch huts etc. It really was the envy of most people here. But after about 2 years of that, they sold the property. I was as shocked as most other people and asked him why, but he said that it just became too 'samey' day after day, living in that resort style environment, and they were craving something different. So they actually moved to Bali, and bought a house there. After about 12 months, they moved back. Once again, I asked, and received a similar answer. Living in 'holiday mode' for months on end, and getting waited on hand and foot by locals, while it sounded like heaven for most people, turned into a chore, and they got bored and craved something different. For me personally, I have spent the past decade or so setting up my business so that it can be operated from anywhere. We bought quite a nice house with a downstairs separate office so I could work from home and be near the kids when they were younger and going to school just up the road. Whilst 80% of the time, it IS bliss, and works well, and I am happy - there are the odd times that I get cabin fever, or crave working in an office environment again - just for the change mainly. My solution to that was to essentially go down the 'craftsman' route - by giving up doing general IT support work, which at the time was the mainstay of my business, and focusing on just software development. But not 'software development' where I would basically be a project manager and farm the actual work out to overseas contractors. I meant 'software development' as a craft where it would only be myself touching the code, liaising with the customers, and doing all the design, coding, testing etc. Much as a bespoke cobbler or blacksmith would do in the old days - I would talk to a customer who approached me, help them to work out what they wanted, and then (this is the important bit) I would decide whether to take on the job, or refer them onto another colleague. I would only take on work that I found challenging, or that would push me to learn new technologies or methodologies. Not TOO much, otherwise I wouldn't be productive, but just enough so that I wouldn't get bored by the project, and could add another small skillset to my experience roster when I had finished. I also reverted to working on basically one project at a time, and was turning away more work that I was taking on. I would treat each project as an 'end to end' thing - and would take pride when I finished and delivered the results to my client. Throwing myself wholly and solely into my work like this helped to keep my batteries charged a lot longer. I guess it is a lot like a Startup founder working completely focused on their 'baby' (NB, I am also working on a startup of my own at the moment). Sure that was a bit of a hit on cashflow and profitability, but my personal happiness at work went up. Owning a project from start to finish, then basically being able to hand it over and dust my hands off and stop thinking about it altogether before starting the next one helped to keep me mentally sharp and focused. (Of course, there are always return clients who want extras or enhancements, but I similarly treat those as a whole new separate project each time). The other thing that helped was to turn my office space into a mix of my hobby and professional passions. I am an avid guitarist, so my programming space is also a mini recording studio, and I often pick up a guitar and play while waiting for downloads/compiles or just in between tedious tasks. That also helps to keep my mind fresh and keeps it from wandering and wishing for different things. I believe that the death of passion is what brings about that restlessness that people feel when they crave change. Keeping that passion burning and fresh is the key IMHO. Having said that - there is still no substitute for a lengthy break from the day to day routine in your life. I forgot how nice it was to take a holiday away from tech and even guitars every now and then. Keeps me hungry and reminds me how much I miss it. I need to consciously do it more. Hope this little diatribe helped to answer your question in some small way! :) (Note: For some more background, check the links in my HN bio - you will notice on my business web page, I stress the concept of 'software craftsmanship' there too, so my clients understand how I work).
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    This was excellent. I bookmarked it so I can come back to it from time to time. Thank you for sharing.
  - donovanh 9y ago
    Thank you for this. I had some experience of what you mean in my 20s when a website did relatively well for a few years and I got to experience that kind of restlessness. I’m working harder than ever these days (approaching 40) and working on software from home while the kids are small, it has its ups and downs but more interesting.
  - 0x445442 9y ago
    Thanks for the insights. I did "contract" work here in the U.S. for a couple of years because I thought it would allow me to approach software in the same way. Sadly, I found out that contracting was based on a butts in seats model and was the most evolved attempt at comiditizing software developers. I've often evisoned doing something similar to you one day where the model approached that of a general building contractor. A model where I work with clients to determine their business needs and if those needs could be met with software. Then we would negotiate compensation for a deliverable. My bid would take time into account but I wouldn't be getting paid for time but for product.
  - ozim 9y ago
    I was having idea that cyberferret just could type 'kids these days' but this reply makes it a lot better.
  - gurkendoktor 9y ago
    > I meant 'software development' as a craft where it would only be myself touching the code, liaising with the customers, and doing all the design, coding, testing etc. This is my favorite part about working on iOS apps: Most of them are small enough that they can be built and maintained by a motivated individual, and for most of my clients it is natural to outsource some of the decision-making because their in-house folks only understand websites or desktop apps. I wish this "software blacksmith" development model was more common.
  - 9y ago
- mathgladiator 9y ago
  The one bit of advice that I have is that you have to find the problem that is worth suffering for.
busterarm 9y ago
I'm still in my 30s, but I've encountered a lot of the younger developers who are talented but have a very low maturity level when anything requires soft skills like managing people, hiring/firing, etc. Sometimes it feels a lot like Lord of the Flies, honestly. The amount of resistance that I see to staffing up with dedicated project/people managers everywhere I seem to go is extremely distressing and that feeling grows each passing year. Hearing an 8-years-your-junior boss say to you "I don't want to manage anyone older than me" when evaluating another new hire is a bit of a shock.
- mpalmer 9y ago
  Especially since that smacks more than a little of discrimination.
- WalterBright 9y ago
  > Hearing an 8-years-your-junior boss say to you "I don't want to manage anyone older than me" The key is to reframe the relationship as not one of being "managed", but as a partnership where he removes the obstacles you have to getting your work done.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Managing your manager is a stop-gap measure until you can find another job with a better manager. One should not have to reframe why age discrimination is illegal/immoral to one’s manager.
    - busterarm 9y ago
      Yes, basically this is what I did. Both steps.
    - sgt101 9y ago
      Also, it must be a low utility move - rejecting stacks of CV's arbitrarily must mean that you end up with poorer teams in the long run.
    - 9y ago
zapita 9y ago
> Craftsmanship is a lost art form these days. In my experience, that is not equally true everywhere in the world. It's certainly very true in the USA. In my opinion that's partly because college and trade schools are so expensive. Unsurprinsingly, the result is students with less years of experience practicing their craft. I think this is mostly cultural. The original American craft is business. Everything else is seen through the lens of business. Everything becomes a hustle. Including things that really shouldn't, like teaching a craft, or learning one. In other cultures, the craft itself - practicing it, preserving it, transmitting it - is the priority, and business is a tool to achieve that end. Not so in the US. I don't know Australia (where I think you're from) but perhaps it's similar there?
- cyberferret 9y ago
  You are right - I am in Australia, and we tend to follow the trends of the USA etc. when it comes to building businesses here. It wasn't always like that though, and when I was younger, learning a trade or starting an apprenticeship was something that was highly valued and encouraged across most socio-economic groups. Sadly, that trend seems to be fading with more people encouraging their kids to complete tertiary education, get a degree and join the rat-race/hustle. I can recall when our town had its own 'go to' citizens where you knew you would get old fashioned expert craftsmanship and service when you needed your car services, or a cabinet made, or a haircut etc., but that tends to have become lost in a sea of bland, homogenised 'me too' businesses.
- combatentropy 9y ago
  As a lifelong citizen on the USA, I agree, and so does Paul Graham ("Made in the USA," http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html). Most Americans are uninterested in craftsmanship. Actually, I think it's more basic. Most Americans are unaware of craftsmanship. They just do not understand what it is. They think it is a flourish that maybe adds 10%. A knife is a knife. If one costs three times as much because of "better craftsmanship," an American is likely to think that means it has some decorative etchings. A knife is a knife, so for most Americans, shopping is just about finding the cheapest one. They are all knives, so only a fool would pay $100 when you can get one for $10. They figure that the one that costs $100 is because its maker hasn't put together the most efficient factory, or that it somehow became fashionable, maybe because a movie star had one --- certainly not because it lasts longer, will stay sharper longer, or anything practical like that. Americans are sometimes okay with spending more on a particular manifestation of a general item. For example, it's okay to have an expensive car. But even then, they don't think Porsches are crafted better. It's that they look better (but for no objective reason, it's just what you like) and that they go faster (but not for any clever reason, they just have a big engine, what's so hard about that?). Or if you're not into sports cars, you might spend a bunch of money on a Jaguar. But the Jaguar is not a more comfortable ride because of more craftsmanship. It's just a matter of adding more padding to the seats and using bigger springs in the suspension. Anyone could do it. You just make things bigger. Bigger is better. More is always better. "Less is more," is some kind of Buddhist mantra by people who can't afford the nice things in life, so they kid themselves. There are many exceptions. For example, Steve Jobs. Also, I find that many craftsmen appreciate craftsmanship: a plumber, mechanic, or carpenter. The problem is that most Americans don't work in these blue-collar jobs. The goal is white-collar jobs, and maybe that is the root of the problem. In America there are so many ways to make money at a desk or through a clever deal, that that has become the aspiration.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

wjn0 9y ago

> anything you do day in day out, can become routine, boring and something that you will yearn to be 'free' from after a while. You seem to both understand, and maybe have overcome at one time or another, this sentiment. Would you have any advice for someone who seems to experience this chronically?

cyberferret 9y ago
I guess I have bumped against this several times. Given my age (52), I think I have done so more times than someone who is 22. I shall use an acquaintance/client of mine that I have known for years as an illustration. A very successful businessman, he and his family have a love of the Balinese lifestyle, though they live here in Australia. His wealth and success meant that he could buy a huge property just outside town and turn it into a little 'mini Bali resort'. He had a beautiful artificial lagoon, plunge pools, thatch huts etc. It really was the envy of most people here. But after about 2 years of that, they sold the property. I was as shocked as most other people and asked him why, but he said that it just became too 'samey' day after day, living in that resort style environment, and they were craving something different. So they actually moved to Bali, and bought a house there. After about 12 months, they moved back. Once again, I asked, and received a similar answer. Living in 'holiday mode' for months on end, and getting waited on hand and foot by locals, while it sounded like heaven for most people, turned into a chore, and they got bored and craved something different. For me personally, I have spent the past decade or so setting up my business so that it can be operated from anywhere. We bought quite a nice house with a downstairs separate office so I could work from home and be near the kids when they were younger and going to school just up the road. Whilst 80% of the time, it IS bliss, and works well, and I am happy - there are the odd times that I get cabin fever, or crave working in an office environment again - just for the change mainly. My solution to that was to essentially go down the 'craftsman' route - by giving up doing general IT support work, which at the time was the mainstay of my business, and focusing on just software development. But not 'software development' where I would basically be a project manager and farm the actual work out to overseas contractors. I meant 'software development' as a craft where it would only be myself touching the code, liaising with the customers, and doing all the design, coding, testing etc. Much as a bespoke cobbler or blacksmith would do in the old days - I would talk to a customer who approached me, help them to work out what they wanted, and then (this is the important bit) I would decide whether to take on the job, or refer them onto another colleague. I would only take on work that I found challenging, or that would push me to learn new technologies or methodologies. Not TOO much, otherwise I wouldn't be productive, but just enough so that I wouldn't get bored by the project, and could add another small skillset to my experience roster when I had finished. I also reverted to working on basically one project at a time, and was turning away more work that I was taking on. I would treat each project as an 'end to end' thing - and would take pride when I finished and delivered the results to my client. Throwing myself wholly and solely into my work like this helped to keep my batteries charged a lot longer. I guess it is a lot like a Startup founder working completely focused on their 'baby' (NB, I am also working on a startup of my own at the moment). Sure that was a bit of a hit on cashflow and profitability, but my personal happiness at work went up. Owning a project from start to finish, then basically being able to hand it over and dust my hands off and stop thinking about it altogether before starting the next one helped to keep me mentally sharp and focused. (Of course, there are always return clients who want extras or enhancements, but I similarly treat those as a whole new separate project each time). The other thing that helped was to turn my office space into a mix of my hobby and professional passions. I am an avid guitarist, so my programming space is also a mini recording studio, and I often pick up a guitar and play while waiting for downloads/compiles or just in between tedious tasks. That also helps to keep my mind fresh and keeps it from wandering and wishing for different things. I believe that the death of passion is what brings about that restlessness that people feel when they crave change. Keeping that passion burning and fresh is the key IMHO. Having said that - there is still no substitute for a lengthy break from the day to day routine in your life. I forgot how nice it was to take a holiday away from tech and even guitars every now and then. Keeps me hungry and reminds me how much I miss it. I need to consciously do it more. Hope this little diatribe helped to answer your question in some small way! :) (Note: For some more background, check the links in my HN bio - you will notice on my business web page, I stress the concept of 'software craftsmanship' there too, so my clients understand how I work).
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  This was excellent. I bookmarked it so I can come back to it from time to time. Thank you for sharing.
- donovanh 9y ago
  Thank you for this. I had some experience of what you mean in my 20s when a website did relatively well for a few years and I got to experience that kind of restlessness. I’m working harder than ever these days (approaching 40) and working on software from home while the kids are small, it has its ups and downs but more interesting.
- 0x445442 9y ago
  Thanks for the insights. I did "contract" work here in the U.S. for a couple of years because I thought it would allow me to approach software in the same way. Sadly, I found out that contracting was based on a butts in seats model and was the most evolved attempt at comiditizing software developers. I've often evisoned doing something similar to you one day where the model approached that of a general building contractor. A model where I work with clients to determine their business needs and if those needs could be met with software. Then we would negotiate compensation for a deliverable. My bid would take time into account but I wouldn't be getting paid for time but for product.
- ozim 9y ago
  I was having idea that cyberferret just could type 'kids these days' but this reply makes it a lot better.
- gurkendoktor 9y ago
  > I meant 'software development' as a craft where it would only be myself touching the code, liaising with the customers, and doing all the design, coding, testing etc. This is my favorite part about working on iOS apps: Most of them are small enough that they can be built and maintained by a motivated individual, and for most of my clients it is natural to outsource some of the decision-making because their in-house folks only understand websites or desktop apps. I wish this "software blacksmith" development model was more common.
- 9y ago
mathgladiator 9y ago
The one bit of advice that I have is that you have to find the problem that is worth suffering for.

busterarm 9y ago

I'm still in my 30s, but I've encountered a lot of the younger developers who are talented but have a very low maturity level when anything requires soft skills like managing people, hiring/firing, etc. Sometimes it feels a lot like Lord of the Flies, honestly. The amount of resistance that I see to staffing up with dedicated project/people managers everywhere I seem to go is extremely distressing and that feeling grows each passing year. Hearing an 8-years-your-junior boss say to you "I don't want to manage anyone older than me" when evaluating another new hire is a bit of a shock.

mpalmer 9y ago
Especially since that smacks more than a little of discrimination.
WalterBright 9y ago
> Hearing an 8-years-your-junior boss say to you "I don't want to manage anyone older than me" The key is to reframe the relationship as not one of being "managed", but as a partnership where he removes the obstacles you have to getting your work done.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Managing your manager is a stop-gap measure until you can find another job with a better manager. One should not have to reframe why age discrimination is illegal/immoral to one’s manager.
  - busterarm 9y ago
    Yes, basically this is what I did. Both steps.
  - sgt101 9y ago
    Also, it must be a low utility move - rejecting stacks of CV's arbitrarily must mean that you end up with poorer teams in the long run.
  - 9y ago

zapita 9y ago

> Craftsmanship is a lost art form these days. In my experience, that is not equally true everywhere in the world. It's certainly very true in the USA. In my opinion that's partly because college and trade schools are so expensive. Unsurprinsingly, the result is students with less years of experience practicing their craft. I think this is mostly cultural. The original American craft is business. Everything else is seen through the lens of business. Everything becomes a hustle. Including things that really shouldn't, like teaching a craft, or learning one. In other cultures, the craft itself - practicing it, preserving it, transmitting it - is the priority, and business is a tool to achieve that end. Not so in the US. I don't know Australia (where I think you're from) but perhaps it's similar there?

cyberferret 9y ago
You are right - I am in Australia, and we tend to follow the trends of the USA etc. when it comes to building businesses here. It wasn't always like that though, and when I was younger, learning a trade or starting an apprenticeship was something that was highly valued and encouraged across most socio-economic groups. Sadly, that trend seems to be fading with more people encouraging their kids to complete tertiary education, get a degree and join the rat-race/hustle. I can recall when our town had its own 'go to' citizens where you knew you would get old fashioned expert craftsmanship and service when you needed your car services, or a cabinet made, or a haircut etc., but that tends to have become lost in a sea of bland, homogenised 'me too' businesses.
combatentropy 9y ago
As a lifelong citizen on the USA, I agree, and so does Paul Graham ("Made in the USA," http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html). Most Americans are uninterested in craftsmanship. Actually, I think it's more basic. Most Americans are unaware of craftsmanship. They just do not understand what it is. They think it is a flourish that maybe adds 10%. A knife is a knife. If one costs three times as much because of "better craftsmanship," an American is likely to think that means it has some decorative etchings. A knife is a knife, so for most Americans, shopping is just about finding the cheapest one. They are all knives, so only a fool would pay $100 when you can get one for $10. They figure that the one that costs $100 is because its maker hasn't put together the most efficient factory, or that it somehow became fashionable, maybe because a movie star had one --- certainly not because it lasts longer, will stay sharper longer, or anything practical like that. Americans are sometimes okay with spending more on a particular manifestation of a general item. For example, it's okay to have an expensive car. But even then, they don't think Porsches are crafted better. It's that they look better (but for no objective reason, it's just what you like) and that they go faster (but not for any clever reason, they just have a big engine, what's so hard about that?). Or if you're not into sports cars, you might spend a bunch of money on a Jaguar. But the Jaguar is not a more comfortable ride because of more craftsmanship. It's just a matter of adding more padding to the seats and using bigger springs in the suspension. Anyone could do it. You just make things bigger. Bigger is better. More is always better. "Less is more," is some kind of Buddhist mantra by people who can't afford the nice things in life, so they kid themselves. There are many exceptions. For example, Steve Jobs. Also, I find that many craftsmen appreciate craftsmanship: a plumber, mechanic, or carpenter. The problem is that most Americans don't work in these blue-collar jobs. The goal is white-collar jobs, and maybe that is the root of the problem. In America there are so many ways to make money at a desk or through a clever deal, that that has become the aspiration.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]