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I do not ever comment, but this article is rife with misconceptions. A specific example would be: * How did America’s elderly end up cheated of dignity? After

I do not ever comment, but this article is rife with misconceptions. A specific example would be: * How did America’s elderly end up cheated of dignity? After all, even desperately poor countries have “informal social support systems” — otherwise known as families and communities. But in America, there is the catastrophic collapse of social bonds. Extreme capitalism has blown apart American society so totally that people cannot even care for one another as much as they do in places like Pakistan and Nigeria.* Any honest examination of the destruction of the social family unit easily shows that this was not due to capitalism, but progressive and socialist legislation that encouraged disintegration of the family units. Three of the largest 'capitalism endorsed' holidays in the USA are Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter (though Easter in the last few decades has decreased significantly in its importance and stature). If anything, capitalism's endorsement of these holidays brings families CLOSER together, than they normally exist during the rest of the year. Left policies and statements about 'patriarchal structures' and why they need to be disassembled have contributed far more to family unit disintegration than capitalism. Edit: Not to belabor the point either, but referencing Pakistan and Nigeria in this quote shows the authors bias. Both of these countries are great examples where patriarchy is absolutely thriving, strong familial bonds, led by men in those nations, with a subjugated women class.

throwawayjava 9y ago
> Any honest examination of the destruction of the social family unit easily shows that this was not due to capitalism, but progressive and socialist legislation that encouraged disintegration of the family units. Can you give concrete examples of legislation that "encouraged disintegration of the family units"? > If anything, capitalism's endorsement of these holidays brings families CLOSER together, than they normally exist during the rest of the year How so? Would Christmas have faded in significance if it weren't "endorsed" by capitalism"? > Left policies and statements about 'patriarchal structures' and why they need to be disassembled have contributed far more to family unit disintegration than capitalism. The canonical American nuclear family unit doesn't even include multi-generational housing.
- shillno1138 9y ago
  >Can you give concrete examples of legislation that "encouraged disintegration of the family units"? Absolutely. I am not going to link to any analysis right now, but take a look at the requirements placed on familiy units for welfare consumption, WIC, etc. In order to obtain the optimal amount of benefit, the family unit must already be in a disintegrated state, eg non-married, non-cohabitating, with offspring present. This encourages an anti-marriage, anti-stable family pattern. >The canonical American nuclear family unit doesn't even include multi-generational housing. This is where you will need to link me to concrete proof of anything having to do with the 'canonical American nuclear family'. This appears to be a statement that is clearly subjective from family to family.
  - mdekkers 9y ago
    In order to obtain the optimal amount of benefit, the family unit must already be in a disintegrated state, eg non-married, non-cohabitating, with offspring present. This encourages an anti-marriage, anti-stable family pattern. Doesn't appear to be a problem in, say, Scandinavian countries, those hotspots of unbridled socialism. Pretty much every quality of life ranking lists those right at the top, along with other socialist troublemakers like Canada, The Netherlands, etc. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-full-list https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-f...
  - lou1306 9y ago
    > This encourages an anti-marriage, anti-stable family pattern. Welfare state is not "let's financially encourage the disintegration of families". It's "let's help individuals that suffer from the lack of a family support system". People on unemployment benefits still look for a job, because they value their dignity over money. Similarly, most people want to be loved and cared, and wouldn't destroy their own family over a (meager, by the way) monetary gain.
    - throwawayjava 9y ago
      > Welfare state is not "let's financially encourage the disintegration of families". It's "let's help individuals that suffer from the lack of a family support system". In policy, outcomes are at least as important as intentions. The question is whether welfare has this effect, not whether the original/current proponents of welfare intend for this effect. There's the kernel of a reasonable idea here [1]. Unfortunately for your parent post, even the studies most favorable to this conclusion find only a modest effect and cite factors like relationship quality and access to decent paying jobs as much better predictors of marriage success. > People on unemployment benefits still look for a job, because they value their dignity over money. Even the studies that are used to justify your parent post's viewpoint ultimately conclude that this is true for the vast majority of people. Interestingly, those studies also find that the poorer you are, the less likely you are to consider loss of welfare benefits when making a decision about marriage. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_trap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_trap
mdekkers 9y ago
This comment is hilarious. this was not due to capitalism, but progressive and socialist legislation that encouraged disintegration of the family units. [Citation needed] If anything, capitalism's endorsement of these holidays brings families CLOSER together, than they normally exist during the rest of the year Lol - Look, we have THREE HOLIDAY DEVOTED TO FAMILY!!1!1 It is all these lefty wingnut commie socialists that are spreading FAKE NEWS!! Three WHOLE DAYS! How much closer do you want families to be!!
- shillno1138 9y ago
  You are misrepresenting fairly benign statements, and I think you know that.
  - mdekkers 9y ago
    You are misrepresenting fairly benign statements, and I think you know that. Not at all. You randomly talk about "socialist legislation that encouraged disintegration of the family units." without giving specific examples. You also point to 3 holidays that have an emphasis on the family as proof that capitalism does it better, which is just plain old laughable bullshit. Family isn't about 3 days a year, family is about every day of the year. The fact that this actually needs to be pointed out to you shows that the article is on to something.
    - shillno1138 9y ago
      I quite literally never stated that capitalism does anything better. But that the authors assertions are nonsense.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        You quite literally stated that progressive policies break up families and capitalism brings them together.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
csel 9y ago
"Three of the largest 'capitalism endorsed' holidays in the USA are Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter (though Easter in the last few decades has decreased significantly in its importance and stature)." You mean the two major holidays where people are busy on their phones, and flyers planning what they are going to buy because retailers decided to keep their stores open and start their "blockbuster/doorbuster" sales the day of and the day before those holidays? Yep, those "progressive and socialist legislation" and nothing to do with capitalism, right? /s
dang 9y ago
Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological tangents. Political battle is low-value discussion (for this site) to begin with and has a way of proliferating dismayingly. It is the opposite of what HN is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

throwawayjava 9y ago

> Any honest examination of the destruction of the social family unit easily shows that this was not due to capitalism, but progressive and socialist legislation that encouraged disintegration of the family units. Can you give concrete examples of legislation that "encouraged disintegration of the family units"? > If anything, capitalism's endorsement of these holidays brings families CLOSER together, than they normally exist during the rest of the year How so? Would Christmas have faded in significance if it weren't "endorsed" by capitalism"? > Left policies and statements about 'patriarchal structures' and why they need to be disassembled have contributed far more to family unit disintegration than capitalism. The canonical American nuclear family unit doesn't even include multi-generational housing.

shillno1138 9y ago
>Can you give concrete examples of legislation that "encouraged disintegration of the family units"? Absolutely. I am not going to link to any analysis right now, but take a look at the requirements placed on familiy units for welfare consumption, WIC, etc. In order to obtain the optimal amount of benefit, the family unit must already be in a disintegrated state, eg non-married, non-cohabitating, with offspring present. This encourages an anti-marriage, anti-stable family pattern. >The canonical American nuclear family unit doesn't even include multi-generational housing. This is where you will need to link me to concrete proof of anything having to do with the 'canonical American nuclear family'. This appears to be a statement that is clearly subjective from family to family.
- mdekkers 9y ago
  In order to obtain the optimal amount of benefit, the family unit must already be in a disintegrated state, eg non-married, non-cohabitating, with offspring present. This encourages an anti-marriage, anti-stable family pattern. Doesn't appear to be a problem in, say, Scandinavian countries, those hotspots of unbridled socialism. Pretty much every quality of life ranking lists those right at the top, along with other socialist troublemakers like Canada, The Netherlands, etc. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-full-list https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-f...
- lou1306 9y ago
  > This encourages an anti-marriage, anti-stable family pattern. Welfare state is not "let's financially encourage the disintegration of families". It's "let's help individuals that suffer from the lack of a family support system". People on unemployment benefits still look for a job, because they value their dignity over money. Similarly, most people want to be loved and cared, and wouldn't destroy their own family over a (meager, by the way) monetary gain.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    > Welfare state is not "let's financially encourage the disintegration of families". It's "let's help individuals that suffer from the lack of a family support system". In policy, outcomes are at least as important as intentions. The question is whether welfare has this effect, not whether the original/current proponents of welfare intend for this effect. There's the kernel of a reasonable idea here [1]. Unfortunately for your parent post, even the studies most favorable to this conclusion find only a modest effect and cite factors like relationship quality and access to decent paying jobs as much better predictors of marriage success. > People on unemployment benefits still look for a job, because they value their dignity over money. Even the studies that are used to justify your parent post's viewpoint ultimately conclude that this is true for the vast majority of people. Interestingly, those studies also find that the poorer you are, the less likely you are to consider loss of welfare benefits when making a decision about marriage. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_trap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_trap

mdekkers 9y ago

This comment is hilarious. this was not due to capitalism, but progressive and socialist legislation that encouraged disintegration of the family units. [Citation needed] If anything, capitalism's endorsement of these holidays brings families CLOSER together, than they normally exist during the rest of the year Lol - Look, we have THREE HOLIDAY DEVOTED TO FAMILY!!1!1 It is all these lefty wingnut commie socialists that are spreading FAKE NEWS!! Three WHOLE DAYS! How much closer do you want families to be!!

shillno1138 9y ago
You are misrepresenting fairly benign statements, and I think you know that.
- mdekkers 9y ago
  You are misrepresenting fairly benign statements, and I think you know that. Not at all. You randomly talk about "socialist legislation that encouraged disintegration of the family units." without giving specific examples. You also point to 3 holidays that have an emphasis on the family as proof that capitalism does it better, which is just plain old laughable bullshit. Family isn't about 3 days a year, family is about every day of the year. The fact that this actually needs to be pointed out to you shows that the article is on to something.
  - shillno1138 9y ago
    I quite literally never stated that capitalism does anything better. But that the authors assertions are nonsense.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      You quite literally stated that progressive policies break up families and capitalism brings them together.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

csel 9y ago

"Three of the largest 'capitalism endorsed' holidays in the USA are Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter (though Easter in the last few decades has decreased significantly in its importance and stature)." You mean the two major holidays where people are busy on their phones, and flyers planning what they are going to buy because retailers decided to keep their stores open and start their "blockbuster/doorbuster" sales the day of and the day before those holidays? Yep, those "progressive and socialist legislation" and nothing to do with capitalism, right? /s

dang 9y ago

Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological tangents. Political battle is low-value discussion (for this site) to begin with and has a way of proliferating dismayingly. It is the opposite of what HN is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html