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Wait, are you seriously saying that Grendel and his mother have no moral valence in the context of Beowulf? As far as the Odyssey is concerned, Athena (Odysseus

by dvt 9y ago

Wait, are you seriously saying that Grendel and his mother have no moral valence in the context of Beowulf? As far as the Odyssey is concerned, Athena (Odysseus' patroness and mentor) is literally the god of wisdom and justice. If that's not at least some indication that what he's doing is justified, I don't know what is.

hacknat 9y ago
I think you’ve made a straw man of her argument. She didn’t claim there was no morality in the ancient world or no moral perspective in the folklore, just that there are no good guy/bad guy tropes. I have yet to see you give a textual example, at least in the Odyssey, that contradicts her.
- dvt 9y ago
  I didn't make a straw man, I literally quoted her. Moral face-offs are not a "modern invention" -- I can give very concrete examples: see Odysseus vs. the sirens, Odysseus vs. Polyphemus, Odysseus vs. Circe, Odysseus vs. Poseidon. Obviously, we won't have a Christian morality in an ancient Greek text, but Odysseus, at every turn, exemplifies the Greek virtues. The virtues he probably most aligns with is justice and courage.
markbnj 9y ago
Whatever "moral valence" they do have, you've put there in your reading of the text. Beowulf is just a story about a famous warrior who takes a group of his supporters to help a king with a monster problem.
- dvt 9y ago
  Really? Why is Grendel characterized as "evil" and a "fiend in hell"? Why does Beowulf exemplify traits of courage, bravery, and self-sacrifice? Why is Beowulf already famous for his "good" and "glorious" deeds? I was re-reading the intro, and ran into this gem[1]: 105 the wretched creature ruled for a time since him the Creator had condemned with the kin of Cain; that killing avenged Totally forgot about this literal reference to Cain (of Cain and Abel fame). I mean, you're about as wrong as wrong gets. [1] http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html
  - krapp 9y ago
    Because the story of Beowulf that we have is a Christianized version, rewritten by monks. We have no idea what the actual moral framework or symbolism of Grendel was, or wasn't, in the original story.
    - dvt 9y ago
      I know this. What's your point? My argument still easily defeats the original article.
      - krapp 9y ago
        My point is only that we can't really know whether Grendel is supposed to be some meaningless animal force or symbolic of something with a moral dimension because the original story and its context is lost to time.
        dvt 9y ago
        You don't have a point. Ms. Nichols' argument is that moral face-offs are (and this is an exact quote) "a recent invention that evolved in concert with modern nationalism" -- Beowulf -- Christianized or not -- is a hard counter to that argument. Christ was born, and Beowulf was recorded, much earlier than modern nationalism. For what it's worth, I can even win the harder argument (considering Beowulf as a piece of non-Christianized Norse mythology), but that's beyond my scope. Margins too small, etc.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- yetanother1980 9y ago
  > a monster problem. A monster - literally evil personified in semi human form. You can't really get more good guys Vs bad guys than that.
  - Sangermaine 9y ago
    No, a monster is just a beast, without any necessary moral qualities.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - carapace 9y ago
      > Derived from the Latin monstrum, the word usually connotes something wrong or evil; a monster is generally morally objectionable, physically or psychologically hideous, or a freak of nature. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster I have to disagree. The word "monster" is used for things worse than beasts, "something wrong or evil".

by dvt 9y ago

hacknat 9y ago

I think you’ve made a straw man of her argument. She didn’t claim there was no morality in the ancient world or no moral perspective in the folklore, just that there are no good guy/bad guy tropes. I have yet to see you give a textual example, at least in the Odyssey, that contradicts her.

dvt 9y ago
I didn't make a straw man, I literally quoted her. Moral face-offs are not a "modern invention" -- I can give very concrete examples: see Odysseus vs. the sirens, Odysseus vs. Polyphemus, Odysseus vs. Circe, Odysseus vs. Poseidon. Obviously, we won't have a Christian morality in an ancient Greek text, but Odysseus, at every turn, exemplifies the Greek virtues. The virtues he probably most aligns with is justice and courage.

markbnj 9y ago

Whatever "moral valence" they do have, you've put there in your reading of the text. Beowulf is just a story about a famous warrior who takes a group of his supporters to help a king with a monster problem.

dvt 9y ago
Really? Why is Grendel characterized as "evil" and a "fiend in hell"? Why does Beowulf exemplify traits of courage, bravery, and self-sacrifice? Why is Beowulf already famous for his "good" and "glorious" deeds? I was re-reading the intro, and ran into this gem[1]: 105 the wretched creature ruled for a time since him the Creator had condemned with the kin of Cain; that killing avenged Totally forgot about this literal reference to Cain (of Cain and Abel fame). I mean, you're about as wrong as wrong gets. [1] http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html
- krapp 9y ago
  Because the story of Beowulf that we have is a Christianized version, rewritten by monks. We have no idea what the actual moral framework or symbolism of Grendel was, or wasn't, in the original story.
  - dvt 9y ago
    I know this. What's your point? My argument still easily defeats the original article.
    - krapp 9y ago
      My point is only that we can't really know whether Grendel is supposed to be some meaningless animal force or symbolic of something with a moral dimension because the original story and its context is lost to time.
      - dvt 9y ago
        You don't have a point. Ms. Nichols' argument is that moral face-offs are (and this is an exact quote) "a recent invention that evolved in concert with modern nationalism" -- Beowulf -- Christianized or not -- is a hard counter to that argument. Christ was born, and Beowulf was recorded, much earlier than modern nationalism. For what it's worth, I can even win the harder argument (considering Beowulf as a piece of non-Christianized Norse mythology), but that's beyond my scope. Margins too small, etc.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
yetanother1980 9y ago
> a monster problem. A monster - literally evil personified in semi human form. You can't really get more good guys Vs bad guys than that.
- Sangermaine 9y ago
  No, a monster is just a beast, without any necessary moral qualities.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - carapace 9y ago
    > Derived from the Latin monstrum, the word usually connotes something wrong or evil; a monster is generally morally objectionable, physically or psychologically hideous, or a freak of nature. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster I have to disagree. The word "monster" is used for things worse than beasts, "something wrong or evil".