3 ms·

That same quote made me roll my eyes. You would literally be laughed out of an undergraduate English class if you made that claim. I guess Beowulf and The Odyss

by dvt 9y ago

That same quote made me roll my eyes. You would literally be laughed out of an undergraduate English class if you made that claim. I guess Beowulf and The Odyssey weren't moral face-offs?

ChrisSD 9y ago
What morality was The Odyssey supporting?
- dvt 9y ago
  Are you just trying to goad me or do you seriously not know? The famous Greek virtues: courage, justice, temperance, prudence.
  - ChrisSD 9y ago
    So which antagonist embodies the negatives of all these traits?
    - dvt 9y ago
      Um, by definition, all of them? I feel like I'm being trolled here.
      - tlb 9y ago
        I agree with ChrisSD. None of the antagonists acted out of evil. Their motivations ranged from unrequited love to annoyance over having their livestock eaten by shipwrecked men. They put obstacles in Odysseus's way, but not anywhere near the worst things they could have done. Odysseus was able to propitiate some with suitable offerings, once he understood the offence he had given. There's certainly no Darth Vader in it.
        eropple 9y ago
        Nor, for that matter, was the Iliad. The Trojans had differing goals, but they were not "evil" by even the Greeks' own metrics. (And, following up, Virgil's Aeneid continues this trend.)
        dvt 9y ago
        It's pretty obvious Poseidon was unjustly messing with Odysseus. It's pretty obvious Odysseus was justified in acting in self-defense against Polyphemus. It's pretty obvious Circe was taking advantage of Odysseus' lack of prudence. If you seriously think the ancient Greek world was devoid of morality, you need to read Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics.
        ChrisSD 9y ago
        I don't think anyone is claiming that "the ancient Greek world was devoid of morality". Only that it lacked an embodiment of evil as an antagonist.
        humanrebar 9y ago
        If the point is that Hades isn't the basically-Satan from the Disney cartoon, fair enough. But some characters are atrocious. Like Minos. And Diomedes of Thrace.
        Sangermaine 9y ago
        No, you’re imposing modern ideals on the ancient Greeks. Respect for, and obedience to, the gods was a cardinal virtue for them, such that many Ancient Greek tales seem cruel or arbitrary to us because they were about virtues we don’t venerate as much. Odysseus was punished for his lack of proper respect for the divine. You don’t have the slightest inkling of what you’re talking about.
    - rubidium 9y ago
      The Trojans. They stole Menelaus's wife. They weren't the opposite, but were certainly (to any Greek hearing the tale) the bad guys. Certainly the Greeks wanted to paint them as strong warriors, just as any sports team when they win will say how good of fight the opponent put up. Illiad is very much good vs evil. That's not the totality of the story, but it's there.
Sangermaine 9y ago
>I guess Beowulf and The Odyssey weren't moral face-offs? No, they aren't. What's the "moral face-off" in Beowulf? He goes to help the King of the Danes defeat the monster Grendel. Then he returns home to become king and eventually dies fighting a dragon. Who is the "bad guy"? It's not a moral lesson about good and evil, but about virtues and qualities like bravery important to Anglo-Saxon society. Same with the Odyssey. What's the "moral face-off"? Who's the bad guy? Odysseus has to wander because he had angered the god Poseidon, and goes through a series of adventures and ordeals as a result. It's not a moral struggle of good and evil, it's again a tale about important qualities like obedience to the gods. Neither of those stories are "good guy vs. bad guy" stories in any way.
- dvt 9y ago
  Really? Why is Grendel characterized as "evil" and a "fiend in hell"? Why does Beowulf exemplify traits of courage, bravery, and self-sacrifice? Why is Beowulf already famous for his "good" and "glorious" deeds? I was re-reading the intro, and ran into this gem[1]: 105 the wretched creature ruled for a time since him the Creator had condemned with the kin of Cain; that killing avenged Totally forgot about this literal reference to Cain (of Cain and Abel fame). I mean, you're about as wrong as wrong gets. [1] http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html
  - Sangermaine 9y ago
    Nope. You’re confusing “antagonist” with “bad guy”. I’m fact, much of your confusion, and the confusion in the other comments, stems from conflating “protagonist” and “antagonist” with “hero” and “villain”. Beowulf is a tale of a brave warrior vanquishing monsters, not a struggle of good and evil, anymore than a story about someone hunting a wolf described as “monstrous” or “evil” is a moral tale. It’s similar to what the author points out about the Arthurian stories. The original French tales were about brave knights fighting beasts and monsters to display their strength and bravery. It was only later versions that transformed them into moral paragons fighting representations of human weaknesses and evils. I also note you conspicuously forgot the Odyssey in your response.
sjsbsh 9y ago
?? The OP simply argued theres a good-vs-evil in Christianity and therefore it’s not a recent political creation. He hardly used language that excludes non biblical sources

by dvt 9y ago

That same quote made me roll my eyes. You would literally be laughed out of an undergraduate English class if you made that claim. I guess Beowulf and The Odyssey weren't moral face-offs?

ChrisSD 9y ago

What morality was The Odyssey supporting?

dvt 9y ago
Are you just trying to goad me or do you seriously not know? The famous Greek virtues: courage, justice, temperance, prudence.
- ChrisSD 9y ago
  So which antagonist embodies the negatives of all these traits?
  - dvt 9y ago
    Um, by definition, all of them? I feel like I'm being trolled here.
    - tlb 9y ago
      I agree with ChrisSD. None of the antagonists acted out of evil. Their motivations ranged from unrequited love to annoyance over having their livestock eaten by shipwrecked men. They put obstacles in Odysseus's way, but not anywhere near the worst things they could have done. Odysseus was able to propitiate some with suitable offerings, once he understood the offence he had given. There's certainly no Darth Vader in it.
      - eropple 9y ago
        Nor, for that matter, was the Iliad. The Trojans had differing goals, but they were not "evil" by even the Greeks' own metrics. (And, following up, Virgil's Aeneid continues this trend.)
      - dvt 9y ago
        It's pretty obvious Poseidon was unjustly messing with Odysseus. It's pretty obvious Odysseus was justified in acting in self-defense against Polyphemus. It's pretty obvious Circe was taking advantage of Odysseus' lack of prudence. If you seriously think the ancient Greek world was devoid of morality, you need to read Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics.
        ChrisSD 9y ago
        I don't think anyone is claiming that "the ancient Greek world was devoid of morality". Only that it lacked an embodiment of evil as an antagonist.
        humanrebar 9y ago
        If the point is that Hades isn't the basically-Satan from the Disney cartoon, fair enough. But some characters are atrocious. Like Minos. And Diomedes of Thrace.
        Sangermaine 9y ago
        No, you’re imposing modern ideals on the ancient Greeks. Respect for, and obedience to, the gods was a cardinal virtue for them, such that many Ancient Greek tales seem cruel or arbitrary to us because they were about virtues we don’t venerate as much. Odysseus was punished for his lack of proper respect for the divine. You don’t have the slightest inkling of what you’re talking about.
  - rubidium 9y ago
    The Trojans. They stole Menelaus's wife. They weren't the opposite, but were certainly (to any Greek hearing the tale) the bad guys. Certainly the Greeks wanted to paint them as strong warriors, just as any sports team when they win will say how good of fight the opponent put up. Illiad is very much good vs evil. That's not the totality of the story, but it's there.

Sangermaine 9y ago

>I guess Beowulf and The Odyssey weren't moral face-offs? No, they aren't. What's the "moral face-off" in Beowulf? He goes to help the King of the Danes defeat the monster Grendel. Then he returns home to become king and eventually dies fighting a dragon. Who is the "bad guy"? It's not a moral lesson about good and evil, but about virtues and qualities like bravery important to Anglo-Saxon society. Same with the Odyssey. What's the "moral face-off"? Who's the bad guy? Odysseus has to wander because he had angered the god Poseidon, and goes through a series of adventures and ordeals as a result. It's not a moral struggle of good and evil, it's again a tale about important qualities like obedience to the gods. Neither of those stories are "good guy vs. bad guy" stories in any way.

dvt 9y ago
Really? Why is Grendel characterized as "evil" and a "fiend in hell"? Why does Beowulf exemplify traits of courage, bravery, and self-sacrifice? Why is Beowulf already famous for his "good" and "glorious" deeds? I was re-reading the intro, and ran into this gem[1]: 105 the wretched creature ruled for a time since him the Creator had condemned with the kin of Cain; that killing avenged Totally forgot about this literal reference to Cain (of Cain and Abel fame). I mean, you're about as wrong as wrong gets. [1] http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html
- Sangermaine 9y ago
  Nope. You’re confusing “antagonist” with “bad guy”. I’m fact, much of your confusion, and the confusion in the other comments, stems from conflating “protagonist” and “antagonist” with “hero” and “villain”. Beowulf is a tale of a brave warrior vanquishing monsters, not a struggle of good and evil, anymore than a story about someone hunting a wolf described as “monstrous” or “evil” is a moral tale. It’s similar to what the author points out about the Arthurian stories. The original French tales were about brave knights fighting beasts and monsters to display their strength and bravery. It was only later versions that transformed them into moral paragons fighting representations of human weaknesses and evils. I also note you conspicuously forgot the Odyssey in your response.

sjsbsh 9y ago

?? The OP simply argued theres a good-vs-evil in Christianity and therefore it’s not a recent political creation. He hardly used language that excludes non biblical sources