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I think you have a skewed view of events and exaggerate a bit. You can't base your opinions based on things like anecdotal accounts of two old ladies in a shopp

I think you have a skewed view of events and exaggerate a bit. You can't base your opinions based on things like anecdotal accounts of two old ladies in a shopping mall and then extrapolate and generalize. What's happening in Poland, and in Central/Eastern Europe (CEE) in general, is quite complex. People hate complexity. They like the nice, tidy narratives in the media that warring political factions spin around their own interests. First of all, you might want to distinguish between patriotism and nationalism (understood as a chauvinist national cult). The two are quite different. Second, the period of 1990-2008 is kind of a twilight zone of history. I remember how, following the fall of the Berlin wall, the end of history was an idea that excited people. Come 2008, history has returned and with force. The recession exposed the geopolitical seismic faults stretching and fracturing the world. Capital was found to have a nationality after all. CEE resides on a very particular geopolitical fault line in Europe with its own unique geopolitical, economic, and security concerns and challenges, often at odds with the interests of countries like Germany and Russia (again, historically the case). For many of us, this return of history is something quite new, many of us having spent most of our lives in that supposed post-historic twilight zone. Third, it's in poor taste to conflate opposition to taking in migrants with bigotry. Sure, some people are bigoted or simply ignorant. They do exist. However, that's not what is driving the essential opposition to the taking in migrants. The migrant crisis has been an extraordinary cluster fuck of epic proportions. Also, consider that: the majority of migrants are not Syrians or people from war-torn regions; that the West (including the US, largely at fault for destabilizing the regimes that kept militant Islam in check; many of them countries with colonial pasts in those countries) failed to take in the numbers they could; the wealthy Saudis, with ties to the US, failed to take significant numbers in; the homogeneity of CEE countries post-WWII and the social problems of taking in migrants of radically different culture would cause for both parties; the on-the-ground support, financial and otherwise, of Poles in Syria; the ~1 million Ukrainians Poland took in from war-torn Ukraine while countries like Germany did not. I could continue. The point is that this is a complex issue and the media has been vicious in its suppression of many important facts. Fourth, Western leftists have no qualms trying to strong arm CEE countries into accepting abortion, gay marriage, transgenderism, etc (abortion was once completely legal under communism). They have no problem (through a network of foreign-sponsored NGOs, foreign-owned media, foreign "aid" programs, etc) insinuating these views and attacking those who oppose them with the usual accusations of fascism, misogyny, bigotry, and so on. I don't want to get into a debate about these issues here. I only wish to illustrate the aggressive, paternalistic, and presumptuous attempts to foist these ideological positions onto these societies with the help of wealthy financiers (such as Soros). Don't forget: most migrants come from societies where legal inventions like gay marriage not only doesn't exist, but gay relations are punishable. Beyond that, I wouldn't overstate the transformation you believe was orchestrated by the current government. The state media in Poland changes hands every time the gov't changes and it is a drop in the bucket compared to the world of corporate media which backs the opposition parties regardless of which gov't happens to be in power. Many voted for the current gov't out of exasperation with the previous gov't and its allies. Also, the idea that you are ridiculed for criticizing the current gov't is silly. There is a deluge of criticism of the current gov't, from media outlets to cabaret satire. You are not unique in your perspective and your perspective resides very neatly in the narrative that's been spun by the opposition, its media backers, and affiliated parties. Even some high-ranking clergy in the Church have expressed criticism. Then there's the internet. Cities tend to have more left-leaning tendencies than rural areas. I have come across critics everywhere. I simply cannot fathom what small Polish island you live on where what you hold is remotely true.

ajuc 9y ago
> You can't base your opinions based on things like anecdotal accounts of two old ladies in a shopping mall and then extrapolate and generalize. That was just an example of how widespread this attitude got recently. I've spoken to many people, including my (mostly liberal till recently) family, and the sentiment is similar. > you might want to distinguish between patriotism and nationalism I do distinguish them, and I consider myself a "positivist patriot", as opposed to "romantic nationalist" - which is a much more common attitude in Poland. Patriotism becomes nationalism when people start to exclude others. It's already widespread - see "Poland for Poles" on national holidays, anti-Ukrainian resentment, etc. > often at odds with the interests of countries like Germany and Russia historically Poland was allied with one part of Germany, and fighting the other part of it. Most of old Polish cities were settled basing on German law, often by Germanic settlers. We've had our wars, but we've had wars against all of our neighbors. Currently Poland and Germany only benefit from the cooperation, and the differences are vastly overstated because of internal politics (PIS using anti-German sentiment to fight opposition basically). > the ~1 million Ukrainians Poland took in from war-torn Ukraine you know well it's bullshit. 99+% of them are economic migrants. I'm from Lublin. I have Ukrainians in my family. I've been to Kiev this year, and to Ukraine many times. Ukraine west of Dniepr is as war-torn as Poland was in 2004 (we had 2 wars going on, remember?). > The point is that this is a complex issue It's only issue because politicians made it one. Had we accepted a few tousand imigrants there would be no issue, just like there's no issue in most of EU countries that did just that. Including even Hungary recently :) But it was very convenient for PIS to use imigrants as a card during last elections, so they did, fuck the consequences. So we had the campaign of xenophoby in media, and the effects are pretty bad. Poland had 2500 Indian students last year. In the whole world there's almost 500 000 of them abroad. Out of 25 violent incidents against Indian students abroad, 9 happened in Poland in last year. Violent crimes against Muslim minority in Poland grew almost twice from 2015 to 2016. These are still minor concerns, simply because there's so few immigrants here. But it will have to change, because of demography. And no, 500+ won't help, it's simpe math. Even if every women in child-bearing age had 1 more kid than now - because of a demographic hole from 90s - the number of kids born will drop to record low in next decade. Ukrainians are already there, but it won't suffice. > Western leftists have no qualms trying to strong arm CEE countries into accepting abortion, gay marriage, transgenderism, etc If you consider these things leftist, then the remaining non-leftist countries are Poland, Russia, and Muslim republics. And with Russia I'm not so sure, it's much more libral on abortion. It's not "western leftist", who don't want to ban abortion no matter the conditions. Over 60% of Poles want abortion to be allowed (depending on the circumstances). And it was HIGHER in 90s. The propaganda that is the most widespread is Church and conservatives, not the mythical leftists. And it's working. > I simply cannot fathom what small Polish island you live on where what you hold is remotely true. I'm living in Lublin, visiting my family in small village nearby, and for a few months now and then I live in Warsaw. I wouldn't call it "island", it's pretty good cross-section of a Polish society. > most migrants come from societies where legal inventions like gay marriage not only doesn't exist, but gay relations are punishable Yes, and? Most of them aren't religious. Most of religious Muslims aren't extremists. It's funny how fragile self-image of western (and - in consequence - Polish) right-wing is. Our (western) culture is WINNING. Kids in Egypt and Saudi Arabia watch Real Madrid and Hollywood movies. We don't watch their movies nor their sports. They know who Lewandowski is and what Shakira wear, we don't know who their stars and celebrities are. The assimilation is never easy, but it's inevitable. And the problems western Europe has are nothing new. "The troubles" in UK had much bigger cost in lives than all the Muslim terrorists. France and Spain had their terrorists in 80s and 90s, too. Terrorism crisis is mostly a PR problem. http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2017-05/ter-we-isl-20170523.png http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2017-05/ter-we-i...

ajuc 9y ago

> You can't base your opinions based on things like anecdotal accounts of two old ladies in a shopping mall and then extrapolate and generalize. That was just an example of how widespread this attitude got recently. I've spoken to many people, including my (mostly liberal till recently) family, and the sentiment is similar. > you might want to distinguish between patriotism and nationalism I do distinguish them, and I consider myself a "positivist patriot", as opposed to "romantic nationalist" - which is a much more common attitude in Poland. Patriotism becomes nationalism when people start to exclude others. It's already widespread - see "Poland for Poles" on national holidays, anti-Ukrainian resentment, etc. > often at odds with the interests of countries like Germany and Russia historically Poland was allied with one part of Germany, and fighting the other part of it. Most of old Polish cities were settled basing on German law, often by Germanic settlers. We've had our wars, but we've had wars against all of our neighbors. Currently Poland and Germany only benefit from the cooperation, and the differences are vastly overstated because of internal politics (PIS using anti-German sentiment to fight opposition basically). > the ~1 million Ukrainians Poland took in from war-torn Ukraine you know well it's bullshit. 99+% of them are economic migrants. I'm from Lublin. I have Ukrainians in my family. I've been to Kiev this year, and to Ukraine many times. Ukraine west of Dniepr is as war-torn as Poland was in 2004 (we had 2 wars going on, remember?). > The point is that this is a complex issue It's only issue because politicians made it one. Had we accepted a few tousand imigrants there would be no issue, just like there's no issue in most of EU countries that did just that. Including even Hungary recently :) But it was very convenient for PIS to use imigrants as a card during last elections, so they did, fuck the consequences. So we had the campaign of xenophoby in media, and the effects are pretty bad. Poland had 2500 Indian students last year. In the whole world there's almost 500 000 of them abroad. Out of 25 violent incidents against Indian students abroad, 9 happened in Poland in last year. Violent crimes against Muslim minority in Poland grew almost twice from 2015 to 2016. These are still minor concerns, simply because there's so few immigrants here. But it will have to change, because of demography. And no, 500+ won't help, it's simpe math. Even if every women in child-bearing age had 1 more kid than now - because of a demographic hole from 90s - the number of kids born will drop to record low in next decade. Ukrainians are already there, but it won't suffice. > Western leftists have no qualms trying to strong arm CEE countries into accepting abortion, gay marriage, transgenderism, etc If you consider these things leftist, then the remaining non-leftist countries are Poland, Russia, and Muslim republics. And with Russia I'm not so sure, it's much more libral on abortion. It's not "western leftist", who don't want to ban abortion no matter the conditions. Over 60% of Poles want abortion to be allowed (depending on the circumstances). And it was HIGHER in 90s. The propaganda that is the most widespread is Church and conservatives, not the mythical leftists. And it's working. > I simply cannot fathom what small Polish island you live on where what you hold is remotely true. I'm living in Lublin, visiting my family in small village nearby, and for a few months now and then I live in Warsaw. I wouldn't call it "island", it's pretty good cross-section of a Polish society. > most migrants come from societies where legal inventions like gay marriage not only doesn't exist, but gay relations are punishable Yes, and? Most of them aren't religious. Most of religious Muslims aren't extremists. It's funny how fragile self-image of western (and - in consequence - Polish) right-wing is. Our (western) culture is WINNING. Kids in Egypt and Saudi Arabia watch Real Madrid and Hollywood movies. We don't watch their movies nor their sports. They know who Lewandowski is and what Shakira wear, we don't know who their stars and celebrities are. The assimilation is never easy, but it's inevitable. And the problems western Europe has are nothing new. "The troubles" in UK had much bigger cost in lives than all the Muslim terrorists. France and Spain had their terrorists in 80s and 90s, too. Terrorism crisis is mostly a PR problem. http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2017-05/ter-we-isl-20170523.png http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2017-05/ter-we-i...