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And even on a bicycle or motorcycle it's not that simple. At low speeds you can turn right to go right, but any faster and it's you do the opposite to initiate

And even on a bicycle or motorcycle it's not that simple. At low speeds you can turn right to go right, but any faster and it's you do the opposite to initiate a lean and the lean does the turning. This goes unnoticed on bicycles, but on a heavy motorcycle the it becomes important.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rconti 9y ago
I don't get why people insist on the "low speed" exception. That only works BECAUSE at low speeds you're able to initiate the lean by, well, LEANING, and turning into the lean. At higher speeds this doesn't work simply because you're not able to lean far enough to counteract the vehicle's tendancy to fall the opposite way when you turn the bars. It is more correct to just say at ANY speed you have to countersteer (or in some way get the center of mass on the 'inside' of the turn relative to the wheels) and not confuse people with the low speed vs high speed bit, even though that's the way it FEELS as a rider.
u801e 9y ago
> but any faster and it's you do the opposite to initiate a lean and the lean does the turning. > This goes unnoticed on bicycles, but on a heavy motorcycle the it becomes important. I don't have motorcycle riding experience, but I have noticed the same thing on a bicycle at higher speeds (25 to 35 mph going downhill). On a bicycle, you have to shift yourself a little bit to initiate a turn at those speeds. I guess you have to put more effort into the weight shift on a heavier two wheeled vehicle?
- T-N-T 9y ago
  > I guess you have to put more effort into the weight shift on a heavier two wheeled vehicle? No, this is not how you're supposed to turn whether you use a motorcycle or are riding at moderately higher speeds on a bicycle and this wrong habit is how people become unable to avoid obstacles in a timely manner on the road. Turn-by-leaning doesn't exist, it's an illusion. It works because when you lean, you are pushing a bit on the handle bar. Pushing the handle bar in the direction of your turn makes it go to the opposite direction, which makes the 2 wheeled vehicle lean, and once you stop pushing on the handle bar the momentum will keep you from falling further. You don't need to lean to turn. You only need to push the handle bar. You can in fact put your weight to the side opposite of the lean of the bike ( just be careful and keep the momentum going by pedaling at a fixed rhythm ) so long as you pushed the handlebar the bike will lean toward the direction you pushed, it doesn't matter where you shift your weight. I am utterly amazed at the general confusion in this thread coming from both motorcycle and bicycle riders. Countersteering is how you turn no matter which speed you're at on a two wheeled vehicle. The thing about low speed is that once you initiated the turn and made the vehicle lean a little the wheel will automatically self-adjust and turn into the direction you're leaning on, while at higher speeds the wheel will stay straight after you started leaning. Try it. Go somewhere without obstacles, ride at like 5km/h on a straight line, use only one hand, do not lean your body in any way, and with your one hand, give a gentle push on the right side, and then consciously stop putting any force whatsoever on the handlebar. After your push, the bike will lean to the right because the wheel turned to the left, and once the lean has been initiated, since it's low speed, the wheel will automatically turn to the right side without your help.
  - u801e 9y ago
    > Turn-by-leaning doesn't exist, it's an illusion. It works because when you lean, you are pushing a bit on the handle bar. If one is riding without holding the handlebar, one can make the bicycle go to the left or right depending on which way one leans, which in essence changes the center-of-gravity. The handlebar will turn in the expected direction as well. > Pushing the handle bar in the direction of your turn makes it go to the opposite direction This appears to be counterintuitive. When turning right, for example, I would have to push the left side of the handlebar away from myself, and, at the same time, pull the right side of the handlebar towards myself. The front wheel will then point in the intended direction of travel, and the bike will lean toward the side I'm turning. > I am utterly amazed at the general confusion in this thread coming from both motorcycle and bicycle riders. It's probably because most people, myself included, have not had formal training in bicycle/motorcycle handling skills. And they learn through experience (which probably leads to the problems in obstable avoidance that you describe). Edit: s/handle/handling/
    - T-N-T 9y ago
      > If one is riding without holding the handlebar, one can make the bicycle go to the left or right depending on which way one leans, which in essence changes the center-of-gravity. The handlebar will turn in the expected direction as well. Yes, with the very low weight of a bicycle that can be done at low speed. But I maintain turn by leaning is mostly an illusion because that's not how you actually turn when you're riding on the road and not doing "look ma no hands". Just the fact that your hands are on the handle bar, and that when you lean a little you will also naturally put pressure on the side of your lean, pushing away the handlebar in the direction you're leaning on, which initiate the process of countersteering. It's what people naturally do on 2 wheeled vehicles whether they were taught to or not. > When turning right, for example, I would have to push the left side of the handlebar away from myself, and, at the same time, pull the right side of the handlebar towards myself. The only way this could work is that the lean was already initiated by countersteering. You just haven't realized you push the handle bar and to that instinctively. You should really, really give a conscious try later. Keep your bike as straight as possible, do not lean in any way, do nothing but a gentle push on the handlebar on the side you want to turn, and try very consciously to not put any pressure toward any direction after your gentle push. You will witness your bike leaning, then the wheel wanting to go toward the direction of your lean when you're at low speed, the bike doesn't need you to move the wheel toward the direction of the turn, it does that by itself. Simply put there's no point at which one should consciously do anything other than pushing to initiate the lean. > have not had formal training in bicycle/motorcycle handle skill I can somewhat accept this for people who only very rarely ride their bicycle on a week end or holiday. But if you're going on the road mixed with other vehicles, or worse, if you ride a motorcycle, you should be fully in control of your vehicle. You should be able to make a turn as fast as mechanically possible without falling and at least be conscious that one should keep a steady speed, neither braking nor accelerating, while turning, if one doesn't want to fall and crash. This isn't too noticeable at moderate speeds on a bicycle but it's absolutely necessary to understand that you should keep your speed steady while turning at higher speeds, this is how many, many accidents involving only the rider are caused. The person who doesn't realize the turn is going to be steep before they came too close to the turn and chose to turn while instinctively braking to lower their speed.. braking while turning will make you fall. Loss of speed (unsteady throttle handling) will make you fall. Too much acceleration will make you fall. Here's a good video showing what one can do with their motorcycle when one fully consciously controls its turning, instead of purely relying on instincts and misunderstood ideas like "shifting weight" (don't do that) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVoXGGXRl5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVoXGGXRl5k
T-N-T 9y ago
> At low speeds you can turn right to go right, but any faster and it's you do the opposite to initiate a lean and the lean does the turning. Countersteering works at low speeds too. I don't get where this misinformation comes from, even from people who actually ride 2 wheeled vehicles. Try it, ride at a low speed, don't lean your body toward any side, just give a gentle push on the handle bar on the direction you want to go. It will initiate a lean, and the only difference you will see compared to high speed is that the wheel will self adjust after the lean started, and will automatically move toward the direction of the turn, which makes it appear as if you made a "car like" turn, but that's not what happened. The wheel start turning toward the direction of your turn only after the lean from the countersteering has been initiated.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

rconti 9y ago

I don't get why people insist on the "low speed" exception. That only works BECAUSE at low speeds you're able to initiate the lean by, well, LEANING, and turning into the lean. At higher speeds this doesn't work simply because you're not able to lean far enough to counteract the vehicle's tendancy to fall the opposite way when you turn the bars. It is more correct to just say at ANY speed you have to countersteer (or in some way get the center of mass on the 'inside' of the turn relative to the wheels) and not confuse people with the low speed vs high speed bit, even though that's the way it FEELS as a rider.

u801e 9y ago

> but any faster and it's you do the opposite to initiate a lean and the lean does the turning. > This goes unnoticed on bicycles, but on a heavy motorcycle the it becomes important. I don't have motorcycle riding experience, but I have noticed the same thing on a bicycle at higher speeds (25 to 35 mph going downhill). On a bicycle, you have to shift yourself a little bit to initiate a turn at those speeds. I guess you have to put more effort into the weight shift on a heavier two wheeled vehicle?

T-N-T 9y ago
> I guess you have to put more effort into the weight shift on a heavier two wheeled vehicle? No, this is not how you're supposed to turn whether you use a motorcycle or are riding at moderately higher speeds on a bicycle and this wrong habit is how people become unable to avoid obstacles in a timely manner on the road. Turn-by-leaning doesn't exist, it's an illusion. It works because when you lean, you are pushing a bit on the handle bar. Pushing the handle bar in the direction of your turn makes it go to the opposite direction, which makes the 2 wheeled vehicle lean, and once you stop pushing on the handle bar the momentum will keep you from falling further. You don't need to lean to turn. You only need to push the handle bar. You can in fact put your weight to the side opposite of the lean of the bike ( just be careful and keep the momentum going by pedaling at a fixed rhythm ) so long as you pushed the handlebar the bike will lean toward the direction you pushed, it doesn't matter where you shift your weight. I am utterly amazed at the general confusion in this thread coming from both motorcycle and bicycle riders. Countersteering is how you turn no matter which speed you're at on a two wheeled vehicle. The thing about low speed is that once you initiated the turn and made the vehicle lean a little the wheel will automatically self-adjust and turn into the direction you're leaning on, while at higher speeds the wheel will stay straight after you started leaning. Try it. Go somewhere without obstacles, ride at like 5km/h on a straight line, use only one hand, do not lean your body in any way, and with your one hand, give a gentle push on the right side, and then consciously stop putting any force whatsoever on the handlebar. After your push, the bike will lean to the right because the wheel turned to the left, and once the lean has been initiated, since it's low speed, the wheel will automatically turn to the right side without your help.
- u801e 9y ago
  > Turn-by-leaning doesn't exist, it's an illusion. It works because when you lean, you are pushing a bit on the handle bar. If one is riding without holding the handlebar, one can make the bicycle go to the left or right depending on which way one leans, which in essence changes the center-of-gravity. The handlebar will turn in the expected direction as well. > Pushing the handle bar in the direction of your turn makes it go to the opposite direction This appears to be counterintuitive. When turning right, for example, I would have to push the left side of the handlebar away from myself, and, at the same time, pull the right side of the handlebar towards myself. The front wheel will then point in the intended direction of travel, and the bike will lean toward the side I'm turning. > I am utterly amazed at the general confusion in this thread coming from both motorcycle and bicycle riders. It's probably because most people, myself included, have not had formal training in bicycle/motorcycle handling skills. And they learn through experience (which probably leads to the problems in obstable avoidance that you describe). Edit: s/handle/handling/
  - T-N-T 9y ago
    > If one is riding without holding the handlebar, one can make the bicycle go to the left or right depending on which way one leans, which in essence changes the center-of-gravity. The handlebar will turn in the expected direction as well. Yes, with the very low weight of a bicycle that can be done at low speed. But I maintain turn by leaning is mostly an illusion because that's not how you actually turn when you're riding on the road and not doing "look ma no hands". Just the fact that your hands are on the handle bar, and that when you lean a little you will also naturally put pressure on the side of your lean, pushing away the handlebar in the direction you're leaning on, which initiate the process of countersteering. It's what people naturally do on 2 wheeled vehicles whether they were taught to or not. > When turning right, for example, I would have to push the left side of the handlebar away from myself, and, at the same time, pull the right side of the handlebar towards myself. The only way this could work is that the lean was already initiated by countersteering. You just haven't realized you push the handle bar and to that instinctively. You should really, really give a conscious try later. Keep your bike as straight as possible, do not lean in any way, do nothing but a gentle push on the handlebar on the side you want to turn, and try very consciously to not put any pressure toward any direction after your gentle push. You will witness your bike leaning, then the wheel wanting to go toward the direction of your lean when you're at low speed, the bike doesn't need you to move the wheel toward the direction of the turn, it does that by itself. Simply put there's no point at which one should consciously do anything other than pushing to initiate the lean. > have not had formal training in bicycle/motorcycle handle skill I can somewhat accept this for people who only very rarely ride their bicycle on a week end or holiday. But if you're going on the road mixed with other vehicles, or worse, if you ride a motorcycle, you should be fully in control of your vehicle. You should be able to make a turn as fast as mechanically possible without falling and at least be conscious that one should keep a steady speed, neither braking nor accelerating, while turning, if one doesn't want to fall and crash. This isn't too noticeable at moderate speeds on a bicycle but it's absolutely necessary to understand that you should keep your speed steady while turning at higher speeds, this is how many, many accidents involving only the rider are caused. The person who doesn't realize the turn is going to be steep before they came too close to the turn and chose to turn while instinctively braking to lower their speed.. braking while turning will make you fall. Loss of speed (unsteady throttle handling) will make you fall. Too much acceleration will make you fall. Here's a good video showing what one can do with their motorcycle when one fully consciously controls its turning, instead of purely relying on instincts and misunderstood ideas like "shifting weight" (don't do that) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVoXGGXRl5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVoXGGXRl5k

T-N-T 9y ago

> At low speeds you can turn right to go right, but any faster and it's you do the opposite to initiate a lean and the lean does the turning. Countersteering works at low speeds too. I don't get where this misinformation comes from, even from people who actually ride 2 wheeled vehicles. Try it, ride at a low speed, don't lean your body toward any side, just give a gentle push on the handle bar on the direction you want to go. It will initiate a lean, and the only difference you will see compared to high speed is that the wheel will self adjust after the lean started, and will automatically move toward the direction of the turn, which makes it appear as if you made a "car like" turn, but that's not what happened. The wheel start turning toward the direction of your turn only after the lean from the countersteering has been initiated.