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>Your theory does not take into account pretty normal human psychology and biology, both male and female. No, you can not communicate away resentment over what

>Your theory does not take into account pretty normal human psychology and biology, both male and female. No, you can not communicate away resentment over what is rationally speaking unfair situation. I don't really see how it is an unfair situation. Cleaning, cooking, and home chores in general aren't exactly easy. I know personally I'd definitely like to have someone at least help do those things. I wouldn't mind going to work all day helping provide for someone who was doing those things and I knew when I got home that I didn't have to worry too much about those kinds of chores. There is a reason a division of labor started among humans to begin with. > Of course, you don't consider that women might like that feeling too. Yes, which is why having children and helping support her husband while also potentially doing volunteer work or part time work in something she is interested in are all very good things and part of living a fulfilled life. > Men happen to be human, which is not the same as idealized saints with zero consideration about themselves. But also practically speaking, even this discussion has men resentful over "loosing half of his money" in case of divorce in traditional family. Yes, there is fear and resentment about losing half the life you helped build simply because she may not feel like continuing anymore. There is a reason why there weren't "no fault" divorces in the past. You actually had to have some kind of reason for getting a divorce. Now you can essentially do so on a whim, though of course the process isn't an easy one. > From the female side, in the rosy view she is allowed to do as she please - except being truly useful or achiever. I think that's a ridiculous notion. Caring for children is quite possibly the most important and useful job humans have. It is the reason why we create civilizations and why men go and try to provide for his family. I suppose if you don't have children there's no real reason to not try to have a career of your own. If both partners careers are going well (and thereby useful to continue pursuing) then it would make sense to hire people to help with things around the house. >The feminism of 1960 did not happened because women were going against their biology. It happened because our biology and psychology has deep build in need to be useful I disagree, if you want to feel useful there are lots of things to do. Charitable organizations need volunteers, houses need people to make them feel like a home. How I see it is basically men made society too easy and some women felt the need to struggle still. These women convinced other women that men were somehow evil oppressors through building this society and it is women's turn to "dominate" society. When in reality men were simply doing things to make people's lives better, and women benefitted the most. All that said, I am not against women having careers and not being homemakers. I don't care if people in their relationships decide to have the women be the primary breadwinner. I'd just argue that you are going against how it has been for millennia and will likely have a rough time at it. If you want children there will be a decent amount of time where children will need a lot of care. If women decide to focus on their careers instead of child rearing, they will feel like bad mothers and that isn't just a result of societal expectations. The vast majority of women have very natural nurturing instincts. I think that feminism is encouraging women to go against these biological instincts with no real benefit or gain of happiness for these women.

watwut 9y ago
> There is a reason a division of labor started among humans to begin with. Historical division of labor was entirely different. And no, those things in modern setting do not amount to full time job. Moreover, the idea that whole gender is composed of personality type that likes isolated routine work with pretty much zero external motivation is ridiculous. 1960 America middle class housewife is not historical norm by any meaning. The majority of population were peasants, both genders overworked. Or otherwise said, I don't like cleaning either and prefer someone else to do it too, but it is not because I would perceived it as difficult. Nor is it something that in 2018 requires someone full time at home. > Yes, which is why having children and helping support her husband while also ... That is his hope for her feelings which is not the same as her feelings. While some women might totally feel that way, a lot simply don't. There are schools and they are not harming kids at all. Kids really don't need stay at home parent beyond very small age. > Caring for children is quite possibly the most important and useful job humans have. It is the reason why we create civilizations and why men go and try to provide for his family. That is not how and why we created civilization, historically speaking. But, be teacher if it is the most important and useful job human can have. Why are you not? Why are you here instead of arguing over what is best way to teach reading? > I suppose if you don't have children there's no real reason to not try to have a career of your own. There is no reason not to try career of her own if she has children too. Just like men have careers on their own with children. > When in reality men were simply doing things to make people's lives better, and women benefitted the most. That is nonsense even outside of gender relations. Men (and women) did things for many various reasons, occasionally "making people's lives better" one of them. Many times, simply not. If women benefited the most, then be happy for that revolution, cause women fought and argued to benefit less and you should, logically, benefit from it. Consider it a gift. There is side effect of this setup - that her idea about whether she is happy mattered much less then your theories about what she should be happy about. And your theories just happen to coincide with that makes you feel good about yourself (which is normal and human). You cant do things for someone benefit if you refuse to consider that someones opinion over she likes and wants. > Charitable organizations need volunteers, houses need people to make them feel like a home. Volunteer then. I am fine with it. I am even fine with paying higher taxes and social structures that help poor. But, the houses don't need people to feel like home. The houses need nothing except occasional reparation. Or at least, your feeling of "like home" is not worth of what it cost in her feelings. > These women convinced other women ... The discontent and unhappiness was very real. Even now, being long term stay at home moms is considered risk factor for depression and alcoholism in women. There is reason why many women that came back to work talk about being happier after they came to work. There are some that simply love that period of their lives, but they are not nearly majority. Very few people are built for reality of it - reality of things is always very different that naive romantic fantasy.

watwut 9y ago

> There is a reason a division of labor started among humans to begin with. Historical division of labor was entirely different. And no, those things in modern setting do not amount to full time job. Moreover, the idea that whole gender is composed of personality type that likes isolated routine work with pretty much zero external motivation is ridiculous. 1960 America middle class housewife is not historical norm by any meaning. The majority of population were peasants, both genders overworked. Or otherwise said, I don't like cleaning either and prefer someone else to do it too, but it is not because I would perceived it as difficult. Nor is it something that in 2018 requires someone full time at home. > Yes, which is why having children and helping support her husband while also ... That is his hope for her feelings which is not the same as her feelings. While some women might totally feel that way, a lot simply don't. There are schools and they are not harming kids at all. Kids really don't need stay at home parent beyond very small age. > Caring for children is quite possibly the most important and useful job humans have. It is the reason why we create civilizations and why men go and try to provide for his family. That is not how and why we created civilization, historically speaking. But, be teacher if it is the most important and useful job human can have. Why are you not? Why are you here instead of arguing over what is best way to teach reading? > I suppose if you don't have children there's no real reason to not try to have a career of your own. There is no reason not to try career of her own if she has children too. Just like men have careers on their own with children. > When in reality men were simply doing things to make people's lives better, and women benefitted the most. That is nonsense even outside of gender relations. Men (and women) did things for many various reasons, occasionally "making people's lives better" one of them. Many times, simply not. If women benefited the most, then be happy for that revolution, cause women fought and argued to benefit less and you should, logically, benefit from it. Consider it a gift. There is side effect of this setup - that her idea about whether she is happy mattered much less then your theories about what she should be happy about. And your theories just happen to coincide with that makes you feel good about yourself (which is normal and human). You cant do things for someone benefit if you refuse to consider that someones opinion over she likes and wants. > Charitable organizations need volunteers, houses need people to make them feel like a home. Volunteer then. I am fine with it. I am even fine with paying higher taxes and social structures that help poor. But, the houses don't need people to feel like home. The houses need nothing except occasional reparation. Or at least, your feeling of "like home" is not worth of what it cost in her feelings. > These women convinced other women ... The discontent and unhappiness was very real. Even now, being long term stay at home moms is considered risk factor for depression and alcoholism in women. There is reason why many women that came back to work talk about being happier after they came to work. There are some that simply love that period of their lives, but they are not nearly majority. Very few people are built for reality of it - reality of things is always very different that naive romantic fantasy.