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> Before we dive in, an important caveat: You will become a sysadmin of your own mail server. This for me is the deal breaker. I say this as a sysadmin. It's

> Before we dive in, an important caveat: You will become a sysadmin of your own mail server. This for me is the deal breaker. I say this as a sysadmin. It's all well and good running a single server but if that shits the bed then you have to deal with it immediately. So to run something that doesn't require 24/7 support I now have to run a cluster of servers. I'll also need something to manage those servers like salt/ansible/puppet I also need to deal with being my IP blacklisted because of a previous owner, or just entire domains now delivering my email because they don't like the fact i'm not using $email provider Then there is spam filtering and the constant battle that is. Or I could just pay someone a couple of bucks a month to worry about all that shit and not worry about it.

icebraining 9y ago
It's all well and good running a single server but if that shits the bed then you have to deal with it immediately. Well, that depends on your needs. SMTP will keep retrying, so you won't lose any emails, you just might not be able to access them immediately. For my personal email, this is perfectly OK. Not that it ever happened, in my six years of running Exim + Dovecot, but that may have just been luck.
- uhhhhhhh 9y ago
  smtp will eventually give up retrying, and if you're not willing to "always" respond within a few hours, you're going to lose emails.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Is there any server with such a short default? The RFC recommends at least 4-5 days.
    - yosamino 9y ago
      Well, yeah... but if you have any people actually using the server, they will start calling you around day One asking about their mail. At least if the the mail get's bounced after a few hours only, they get some sort of feedback, instead of being left wondering.
      - ams6110 9y ago
        To be fair, the post is about running your own email server. But yes, if you're running one for a business or other group of people, things become more complicated and demanding.
    - uhhhhhhh 9y ago
      24-72 hours is common from my experience, but that likely varies widely and depends on volume and resources. If you're running this in the cloud and properly automated everything, and its not a billing issue, responding and fixing things could be as simple as a few hours. If you're running your own physical machine, repair times for hardware issues can be days. If you're on vacation for a week or longer, and are making a concerted effort to step away from technology and lines of communication, or worse hit by a small bus and in the hospital for any length of time, you may not be aware of issues for some time.
    - jlgaddis 9y ago
      I've seen Exchange bounce an email after receiving a 450 on the first attempt, although it's quite possible that was due to clueless Exchange admins. Postfix default is 2d, Exim 3d, and sendmail 5d, last I knew.
  - jenkstom 9y ago
    The default is 72 hours. Not to say that all SMTP servers everywhere use it, but it's the norm.
sleavey 9y ago
I run my own mail server, mostly for fun and to learn how it all works, but so far, after a few teething problems, it works pretty well. I don't have any critical services registered with addresses from this server; I use it for random websites (like Hacker News newsletters), cron job outputs on my server, Stack Exchange, etc., and as a way to back up my Gmail account remotely. The great thing is that I can dish out unique email address to each service, and have them all end up at the same place, so I know who sold my data when I get spam. If the server falls over during the night, then meh... I'll probably fix it reasonably quickly if I'm not on a beach somewhere, and the sending server is supposed to try again anyway.
- mrb 9y ago
  «The great thing is that I can dish out unique email address» That's the number one reason I would like to run my own server. (And, no, the Gmail trick of adding "+foo" to the username doesn't satisfy me because spammers know this trick and can strip it.)
  - mobweb 9y ago
    Couldn't you just setup a domain with an email hosting provider and then turn on catch-all for that domain? For me I can just use any email @my-domain and it will be forwarded to my actual email address.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - sleavey 9y ago
      Yes, you can do that. But if you run your own server you can configure more complex filters to handle situations where mail is flagged - discard loudly (telling sender), discard silently, move to special folder if unsure of spamminess, let through.
    - rhizome 9y ago
      Then you start getting an amazing number of emails to alice@yourdomain.com, bob@yourdomain.com, chris@yourdomain.com, dan@yourdomain.com, ceo@yourdomain.com, sales@yourdomain.com, etc.
Mister_Snuggles 9y ago
I started to go down the running my own mail server road and started to worry about every one of these issues. I decided that my time is worth more than the cost of something like FastMail.
- marpstar 9y ago
  Not to mention, regardless of time there's little chance you could do it as good as FastMail.
  - Mister_Snuggles 9y ago
    Yeah - that's a very important point. Part of what you're paying for is expertise in a fairly complex and changing field, and with that in mind the price FastMail charges seems to be a bargain.
    - Shoothe 9y ago
      Email is a "changing field"?
      - Mister_Snuggles 9y ago
        Some of the underlying technologies are, yes. Off the top of my head, DKIM and SPF are somewhat new, using TLS for server-to-server communication is somewhat new and not fully deployed, etc. Mail server operators need to keep track of new developments and update their software and infrastructure to account for them. There is no possible way that the current state of email is how it will be forever.
        Shoothe 9y ago
        According to Wikipedia DKIM was conceived in 2004 and SPF was standardized in 2005 (although designs date a few years before that). I wouldn't call them particularly new (it's almost 14 years now). Even DMARC was here in 2010, that's 8 years. One recent thing is MTA STS but the progress is slow on this front (from my POV).
uhhhhhhh 9y ago
As a sysadmin I completely agree. There are a few things I don't run personally because I want them to "always" work, and I can't drop my professional responsibilities to fix my personal email setup during working hours, but at the same time do not want my personal email down for long periods of time or at all. Reliability and delivery consistency is more valuable then pretending your personal email server actually protects you from dragnet surveillance (in my opinion). The truth is every other smtp server you communicate with could be compromised, and if what you're sending is that sensitive, encrypt it at rest, not just in transmission.
KayEss 9y ago
I've been running my own mail servers since the mid-90s, and always only a single server. SMTP keeps retrying, so you can be offline. The transport layer was designed to deliver mail to servers even if those servers only dialled in to one of the "internets" once per day, so it's fine to have some downtime. It's totally up to you how you prioritise getting a server back up again, and frankly if the message can't handle at least a few hours delay then email probably isn't the right medium for it.
- cat199 9y ago
  caveat: keep your DNS up always - so have a backup if this is running DNS - many mailing list programs and other things will drop a mail immediately if the destination cant be resolved..
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    People running their own mail probably would be less nervous about hiring someone for DNS?
- drdaeman 9y ago
  This is actually frustrating, e.g. with a large power outage when you expect an important message. I run my mailhost (single-node) since 2005 and I thought that I need HA more than once or twice. Sadly, I haven't figured out a proper fully-redundant solution. Syncing mailboxes with e.g. Syncthing is way too fragile. Recently, I wanted to experiment with DBMail + CockroachDB cluster but haven't yet found time for that. Never found any MRA that uses document-oriented database like RethinkDB; and GlusterFS is way too sensitive to high latencies - so DBMail+CRDB looks like the only readily accessible option sans of trying more "raw" programmable solutions like Salmon or Haraka and writing own storage backend.
  - andris9 9y ago
    Redundancy requirement was one of the reasons I started building WildDuck mail server. It can be set up with no-spof components, everything can be replicated. https://github.com/nodemailer/wildduck#no-spof-architecture https://github.com/nodemailer/wildduck#no-spof-architecture
yosamino 9y ago
You need to know your DNS well, you need to know your OS basics well (when's the last time you understood what S.M.A.R.T statistics really mean?), you need to know your monitoring well, you need to know your backups are up to date and functioning. Do you have some sort of alerting set up so you will even know if anything went wrong? Oh your are the collateral damage of a DDOS to the datacenter and the datacenter has disconnected your server, and they sent you a mail about it ? To your mailserver ? You have a few other users, and now they would like to use a webmail system? Let's get to it! Whoa, viruses, let's install amavisd to filter those, let's see where is the documentation? Ah. Just the sourcecode ? Very well! It's really more of a second job. But it's ever so much fun once you have a decent grasp on all these things
Tepix 9y ago
You only have to deal with old blacklist entries once when you start your using server. Not a big problem.
rsync 9y ago
"So to run something that doesn't require 24/7 support I now have to run a cluster of servers." My two most recent uptimes for my personal FreeBSD mail+web server were each over 1200 days. My current months sent-mail folder stretched back for years - which is to say, my (al)pine process itself was 3+ years old. No, you don't need a cluster of servers for your personal mail server.
- pyre 9y ago
  Isn't this like saying: > "I've never personally experienced a BSOD in Windows ME, so obviously it's incredibly stable. Those other people are just doing something wrong."
  - korethr 9y ago
    Honestly, when Windows 9x would crash, it was because something was doing something wrong. Drivers and legacy mode programs written and running under the no-longer-true assumption that they're the only program running on the computer will absolutely wreck your day when they poke in places they don't belong and do things they shouldn't. And if you got rid of those misbehaving programs, Win9x got a lot more stable. I used to have crashes all the time. Then one day I got the bright idea to actually read and understand the error code when the computer crashed. I did a few web searches to demystify the error code and its cause, and ripped out the software firewall I was running. And that was the end of my bluescreen troubles. Now, if you want to argue about poorly designed tools and environments that make it all too easy to do the wrong thing, then I think that would be a valid and productive argument.
    - pyre 9y ago
      I was commenting more on dismissing the issues of others because you have not personally experienced them. There could be numerous examples used in place of the BSOD.
      - korethr 9y ago
        That's fair and I'll concede that point.
kazinator 9y ago
> if that shits the bed then you have to deal with it immediately If it's just for your own use, no you don't. If a mail server is down, other mail servers trying to send mail to it will re-try for some time. Just this week I was remotely logged in and screwed the iptables making the machine catatonic to the outside world. Came home in the evening and didn't even bother fixing it until after dinner and various other activities. Like, "oh yeah, before I sleep, I should fix that mail server ...".
- classichasclass 9y ago
  Or, set up a backup MX. For a number of years a friend of mine and I acted as peers for each other. When I was offline for several weeks, every bit of mail I missed got redelivered. Eventually he got tired of running a mail server of his own and I just set up a clone instance on a cheap VM slice, and things Just Work. Yes, servers are supposed to resend when they can't connect, but in practice for those periods where the backup MX was down, I'd still lose some messages I know I should have received.

icebraining 9y ago

It's all well and good running a single server but if that shits the bed then you have to deal with it immediately. Well, that depends on your needs. SMTP will keep retrying, so you won't lose any emails, you just might not be able to access them immediately. For my personal email, this is perfectly OK. Not that it ever happened, in my six years of running Exim + Dovecot, but that may have just been luck.

uhhhhhhh 9y ago
smtp will eventually give up retrying, and if you're not willing to "always" respond within a few hours, you're going to lose emails.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Is there any server with such a short default? The RFC recommends at least 4-5 days.
  - yosamino 9y ago
    Well, yeah... but if you have any people actually using the server, they will start calling you around day One asking about their mail. At least if the the mail get's bounced after a few hours only, they get some sort of feedback, instead of being left wondering.
    - ams6110 9y ago
      To be fair, the post is about running your own email server. But yes, if you're running one for a business or other group of people, things become more complicated and demanding.
  - uhhhhhhh 9y ago
    24-72 hours is common from my experience, but that likely varies widely and depends on volume and resources. If you're running this in the cloud and properly automated everything, and its not a billing issue, responding and fixing things could be as simple as a few hours. If you're running your own physical machine, repair times for hardware issues can be days. If you're on vacation for a week or longer, and are making a concerted effort to step away from technology and lines of communication, or worse hit by a small bus and in the hospital for any length of time, you may not be aware of issues for some time.
  - jlgaddis 9y ago
    I've seen Exchange bounce an email after receiving a 450 on the first attempt, although it's quite possible that was due to clueless Exchange admins. Postfix default is 2d, Exim 3d, and sendmail 5d, last I knew.
- jenkstom 9y ago
  The default is 72 hours. Not to say that all SMTP servers everywhere use it, but it's the norm.

sleavey 9y ago

I run my own mail server, mostly for fun and to learn how it all works, but so far, after a few teething problems, it works pretty well. I don't have any critical services registered with addresses from this server; I use it for random websites (like Hacker News newsletters), cron job outputs on my server, Stack Exchange, etc., and as a way to back up my Gmail account remotely. The great thing is that I can dish out unique email address to each service, and have them all end up at the same place, so I know who sold my data when I get spam. If the server falls over during the night, then meh... I'll probably fix it reasonably quickly if I'm not on a beach somewhere, and the sending server is supposed to try again anyway.

mrb 9y ago
«The great thing is that I can dish out unique email address» That's the number one reason I would like to run my own server. (And, no, the Gmail trick of adding "+foo" to the username doesn't satisfy me because spammers know this trick and can strip it.)
- mobweb 9y ago
  Couldn't you just setup a domain with an email hosting provider and then turn on catch-all for that domain? For me I can just use any email @my-domain and it will be forwarded to my actual email address.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - sleavey 9y ago
    Yes, you can do that. But if you run your own server you can configure more complex filters to handle situations where mail is flagged - discard loudly (telling sender), discard silently, move to special folder if unsure of spamminess, let through.
  - rhizome 9y ago
    Then you start getting an amazing number of emails to alice@yourdomain.com, bob@yourdomain.com, chris@yourdomain.com, dan@yourdomain.com, ceo@yourdomain.com, sales@yourdomain.com, etc.

Mister_Snuggles 9y ago

I started to go down the running my own mail server road and started to worry about every one of these issues. I decided that my time is worth more than the cost of something like FastMail.

marpstar 9y ago
Not to mention, regardless of time there's little chance you could do it as good as FastMail.
- Mister_Snuggles 9y ago
  Yeah - that's a very important point. Part of what you're paying for is expertise in a fairly complex and changing field, and with that in mind the price FastMail charges seems to be a bargain.
  - Shoothe 9y ago
    Email is a "changing field"?
    - Mister_Snuggles 9y ago
      Some of the underlying technologies are, yes. Off the top of my head, DKIM and SPF are somewhat new, using TLS for server-to-server communication is somewhat new and not fully deployed, etc. Mail server operators need to keep track of new developments and update their software and infrastructure to account for them. There is no possible way that the current state of email is how it will be forever.
      - Shoothe 9y ago
        According to Wikipedia DKIM was conceived in 2004 and SPF was standardized in 2005 (although designs date a few years before that). I wouldn't call them particularly new (it's almost 14 years now). Even DMARC was here in 2010, that's 8 years. One recent thing is MTA STS but the progress is slow on this front (from my POV).

uhhhhhhh 9y ago

As a sysadmin I completely agree. There are a few things I don't run personally because I want them to "always" work, and I can't drop my professional responsibilities to fix my personal email setup during working hours, but at the same time do not want my personal email down for long periods of time or at all. Reliability and delivery consistency is more valuable then pretending your personal email server actually protects you from dragnet surveillance (in my opinion). The truth is every other smtp server you communicate with could be compromised, and if what you're sending is that sensitive, encrypt it at rest, not just in transmission.

KayEss 9y ago

I've been running my own mail servers since the mid-90s, and always only a single server. SMTP keeps retrying, so you can be offline. The transport layer was designed to deliver mail to servers even if those servers only dialled in to one of the "internets" once per day, so it's fine to have some downtime. It's totally up to you how you prioritise getting a server back up again, and frankly if the message can't handle at least a few hours delay then email probably isn't the right medium for it.

cat199 9y ago
caveat: keep your DNS up always - so have a backup if this is running DNS - many mailing list programs and other things will drop a mail immediately if the destination cant be resolved..
- jessaustin 9y ago
  People running their own mail probably would be less nervous about hiring someone for DNS?
drdaeman 9y ago
This is actually frustrating, e.g. with a large power outage when you expect an important message. I run my mailhost (single-node) since 2005 and I thought that I need HA more than once or twice. Sadly, I haven't figured out a proper fully-redundant solution. Syncing mailboxes with e.g. Syncthing is way too fragile. Recently, I wanted to experiment with DBMail + CockroachDB cluster but haven't yet found time for that. Never found any MRA that uses document-oriented database like RethinkDB; and GlusterFS is way too sensitive to high latencies - so DBMail+CRDB looks like the only readily accessible option sans of trying more "raw" programmable solutions like Salmon or Haraka and writing own storage backend.
- andris9 9y ago
  Redundancy requirement was one of the reasons I started building WildDuck mail server. It can be set up with no-spof components, everything can be replicated. https://github.com/nodemailer/wildduck#no-spof-architecture https://github.com/nodemailer/wildduck#no-spof-architecture

yosamino 9y ago

You need to know your DNS well, you need to know your OS basics well (when's the last time you understood what S.M.A.R.T statistics really mean?), you need to know your monitoring well, you need to know your backups are up to date and functioning. Do you have some sort of alerting set up so you will even know if anything went wrong? Oh your are the collateral damage of a DDOS to the datacenter and the datacenter has disconnected your server, and they sent you a mail about it ? To your mailserver ? You have a few other users, and now they would like to use a webmail system? Let's get to it! Whoa, viruses, let's install amavisd to filter those, let's see where is the documentation? Ah. Just the sourcecode ? Very well! It's really more of a second job. But it's ever so much fun once you have a decent grasp on all these things

Tepix 9y ago

You only have to deal with old blacklist entries once when you start your using server. Not a big problem.

rsync 9y ago

"So to run something that doesn't require 24/7 support I now have to run a cluster of servers." My two most recent uptimes for my personal FreeBSD mail+web server were each over 1200 days. My current months sent-mail folder stretched back for years - which is to say, my (al)pine process itself was 3+ years old. No, you don't need a cluster of servers for your personal mail server.

pyre 9y ago
Isn't this like saying: > "I've never personally experienced a BSOD in Windows ME, so obviously it's incredibly stable. Those other people are just doing something wrong."
- korethr 9y ago
  Honestly, when Windows 9x would crash, it was because something was doing something wrong. Drivers and legacy mode programs written and running under the no-longer-true assumption that they're the only program running on the computer will absolutely wreck your day when they poke in places they don't belong and do things they shouldn't. And if you got rid of those misbehaving programs, Win9x got a lot more stable. I used to have crashes all the time. Then one day I got the bright idea to actually read and understand the error code when the computer crashed. I did a few web searches to demystify the error code and its cause, and ripped out the software firewall I was running. And that was the end of my bluescreen troubles. Now, if you want to argue about poorly designed tools and environments that make it all too easy to do the wrong thing, then I think that would be a valid and productive argument.
  - pyre 9y ago
    I was commenting more on dismissing the issues of others because you have not personally experienced them. There could be numerous examples used in place of the BSOD.
    - korethr 9y ago
      That's fair and I'll concede that point.

kazinator 9y ago

> if that shits the bed then you have to deal with it immediately If it's just for your own use, no you don't. If a mail server is down, other mail servers trying to send mail to it will re-try for some time. Just this week I was remotely logged in and screwed the iptables making the machine catatonic to the outside world. Came home in the evening and didn't even bother fixing it until after dinner and various other activities. Like, "oh yeah, before I sleep, I should fix that mail server ...".

classichasclass 9y ago
Or, set up a backup MX. For a number of years a friend of mine and I acted as peers for each other. When I was offline for several weeks, every bit of mail I missed got redelivered. Eventually he got tired of running a mail server of his own and I just set up a clone instance on a cheap VM slice, and things Just Work. Yes, servers are supposed to resend when they can't connect, but in practice for those periods where the backup MX was down, I'd still lose some messages I know I should have received.