4 ms·

This sounds like a rant by someone under influence of Hungary's hate campaign against Soros. The fact is that Hungarian government is dismantling democracy and

This sounds like a rant by someone under influence of Hungary's hate campaign against Soros. The fact is that Hungarian government is dismantling democracy and both EU and Soros are right in pointing that out. And while immigration is a matter of national sovereignty, the attitudes towards Muslim immigrants in eastern Europe are driven by nothing but pure xenophobia.

jamesblonde 9y ago
Right on. The government in Hungary are scandalous in their treatment of immigrants and their own Roma people. And to think, it was only 13 years ago we let them into the EU. When, in turn, people on their doorstep in trouble come knocking, the door is firmly slammed in their face.
- PopsiclePete 9y ago
  Eastern European and Western European countries' past history and experience is very different from one another. And events that happened 600 years ago influence that world-view to this day. The way an "enlightened" Frenchman or Italian might view Turkey is very, very different from how a Bulgarian (such as myself) or Serb would view them. As to who's more "correct" in their view, well - that's a whole different subject. These are complex issues and calling Hungary a bunch of racist twats is exactly the same as what Hungarians are doing to "refugees", who, interestingly enough, are disproportionately young men, in good physical condition, running away from countries that are not Syria or otherwise in a state of war. Some of the photographs I've seen of the border crossing show a distinct and very noticeable lack of women and children. And that in itself is also a very interesting subject we could debate for hours.
  - s2g 9y ago
    > Some of the photographs I've seen of the border crossing and you trust those photos?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      The most popular set of photos used to spread this meme are scenes of a group of migrants arriving by train in Munich (not at a border crossing) that are exclusively young men; for reasons not entirely clear to me they were on a separate train from the women and children in the same group, who arrived the next day. There's also pictures of groups of boat refugees that show a large imbalance, which is true of those using that mode of transport, who often leave women and children to follow on once they've found a place because of the extreme danger of the route (which, yes, might evidence some degree of non-progressive concept of gender roles, but that's not the issue being raised.)
  - eecc 9y ago
    What are you insinuating? Might be running from forced conscriptions. Or mass graves, remember Srebrenica.
- qbaqbaqba 9y ago
  Someone may say we(central and eastern Europeans) let your (western European I guess) companies in;) http://piketty.blog.lemonde.fr/2018/01/16/2018-the-year-of-europe/ http://piketty.blog.lemonde.fr/2018/01/16/2018-the-year-of-e...
cat199 9y ago
> dismantling democracy Isn't George Soros also 'dismantling democracy' by influencing elections in places he is not a citizen of?
- walterstucco 9y ago
  Soros have ideas and ideas are good for democracy In Hungary they are trying to shut them down Big little difference
- d1zzy 9y ago
  Democracy without a Bill of Rights is simply dictatorship of the majority. That's why modern democracies have a Constitution and a justice system that is independent of the election system. You are technically right that if someone from outside tries to influence the result of some election that would be meddling with the democratic process but at the same time if that democratic process is considering getting the majority to vote against human rights of certain ethnic groups I don't think it deserves much defense to begin with. In other words, democracy is a tool, not an end in itself.
  - ABCLAW 9y ago
    >You are technically right that if someone from outside tries to influence the result of some election that would be meddling with the democratic process No, he isn't. If someone from the outside is influencing the system to preserve key characteristics it has, they aren't subverting the process. No one thinks foreign election observers sent to oversee contested elections are the heralds of the end of democracy; quite the opposite.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      Election observers are specifically tasked with not influencing the result in a preferred direction; though the accusations that they are influencers is often made to deligitimize them and cause them to be seen as anti-democratic. So the example is, depending on how you look at it, either irrelevant or diametrically opposed to the point you offer it to support.
throwahey 9y ago
I would have to guess that those attitudes are driven somewhat by increased crime rates and high unemployment amongst not only muslim, but African migrants as well. As a muslim I think it is important to address the reality of the situation, not to ignore statistics because they are inconvenient to complete tolerance and inclusivity in western society.
natalyarostova 9y ago
I think the category "fear of outsiders" is certainly partially true, but also a somewhat oversimplification. Having said that, a healthy dose of "fear of outsiders" isn't necessarily a bad thing either. We are all xenophobic, the question is how xenophobic are we, or how xenophobic should we be?
z0ltan 9y ago
Found the shill.
- dang 9y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the HN guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tim333 9y ago
If it were pure xenophobia or "irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries" the Hungarians would be worried about the Austrians and Swedes as much. However for some strange reason they treat the religion of peace types differently.

jamesblonde 9y ago

Right on. The government in Hungary are scandalous in their treatment of immigrants and their own Roma people. And to think, it was only 13 years ago we let them into the EU. When, in turn, people on their doorstep in trouble come knocking, the door is firmly slammed in their face.

PopsiclePete 9y ago
Eastern European and Western European countries' past history and experience is very different from one another. And events that happened 600 years ago influence that world-view to this day. The way an "enlightened" Frenchman or Italian might view Turkey is very, very different from how a Bulgarian (such as myself) or Serb would view them. As to who's more "correct" in their view, well - that's a whole different subject. These are complex issues and calling Hungary a bunch of racist twats is exactly the same as what Hungarians are doing to "refugees", who, interestingly enough, are disproportionately young men, in good physical condition, running away from countries that are not Syria or otherwise in a state of war. Some of the photographs I've seen of the border crossing show a distinct and very noticeable lack of women and children. And that in itself is also a very interesting subject we could debate for hours.
- s2g 9y ago
  > Some of the photographs I've seen of the border crossing and you trust those photos?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    The most popular set of photos used to spread this meme are scenes of a group of migrants arriving by train in Munich (not at a border crossing) that are exclusively young men; for reasons not entirely clear to me they were on a separate train from the women and children in the same group, who arrived the next day. There's also pictures of groups of boat refugees that show a large imbalance, which is true of those using that mode of transport, who often leave women and children to follow on once they've found a place because of the extreme danger of the route (which, yes, might evidence some degree of non-progressive concept of gender roles, but that's not the issue being raised.)
- eecc 9y ago
  What are you insinuating? Might be running from forced conscriptions. Or mass graves, remember Srebrenica.
qbaqbaqba 9y ago
Someone may say we(central and eastern Europeans) let your (western European I guess) companies in;) http://piketty.blog.lemonde.fr/2018/01/16/2018-the-year-of-europe/ http://piketty.blog.lemonde.fr/2018/01/16/2018-the-year-of-e...

cat199 9y ago

> dismantling democracy Isn't George Soros also 'dismantling democracy' by influencing elections in places he is not a citizen of?

walterstucco 9y ago
Soros have ideas and ideas are good for democracy In Hungary they are trying to shut them down Big little difference
d1zzy 9y ago
Democracy without a Bill of Rights is simply dictatorship of the majority. That's why modern democracies have a Constitution and a justice system that is independent of the election system. You are technically right that if someone from outside tries to influence the result of some election that would be meddling with the democratic process but at the same time if that democratic process is considering getting the majority to vote against human rights of certain ethnic groups I don't think it deserves much defense to begin with. In other words, democracy is a tool, not an end in itself.
- ABCLAW 9y ago
  >You are technically right that if someone from outside tries to influence the result of some election that would be meddling with the democratic process No, he isn't. If someone from the outside is influencing the system to preserve key characteristics it has, they aren't subverting the process. No one thinks foreign election observers sent to oversee contested elections are the heralds of the end of democracy; quite the opposite.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    Election observers are specifically tasked with not influencing the result in a preferred direction; though the accusations that they are influencers is often made to deligitimize them and cause them to be seen as anti-democratic. So the example is, depending on how you look at it, either irrelevant or diametrically opposed to the point you offer it to support.

throwahey 9y ago

I would have to guess that those attitudes are driven somewhat by increased crime rates and high unemployment amongst not only muslim, but African migrants as well. As a muslim I think it is important to address the reality of the situation, not to ignore statistics because they are inconvenient to complete tolerance and inclusivity in western society.

natalyarostova 9y ago

I think the category "fear of outsiders" is certainly partially true, but also a somewhat oversimplification. Having said that, a healthy dose of "fear of outsiders" isn't necessarily a bad thing either. We are all xenophobic, the question is how xenophobic are we, or how xenophobic should we be?

z0ltan 9y ago

Found the shill.

dang 9y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the HN guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tim333 9y ago

If it were pure xenophobia or "irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries" the Hungarians would be worried about the Austrians and Swedes as much. However for some strange reason they treat the religion of peace types differently.