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> overestimate the worst-case scenario and the slipperiness of the slope Timothy Snyder (historian of Eastern Europe) wrote a book about the conditions needed

by ajuc 9y ago

> overestimate the worst-case scenario and the slipperiness of the slope Timothy Snyder (historian of Eastern Europe) wrote a book about the conditions needed to happen to get murders in millions. It's called Bloodlands - Europe between Hitler and Stalin, and I highly recommend it, it's cured me of many misconceptions about Holocaust and WW2 (and I thought I know it pretty good, I'm interested in history and I'm Polish - WW2 is still a big subject here). It doesn't only speak about Holocaust, it showcases several genocides that happened just before and during WW2 in eastern Europe, and states a thesis, that the only required condition is destruction of state institutions. Ideologies, cultures, stereotypes are secondary. Some of the most antisemitist states in WW2 had lots of Jews surviving German occupation (see France), some of the least antisemitic countries had almost all of their Jews killed (see Netherlands). It mostly depended on how Germans dealt with the institutions of state when they occupied particular country. Even Germany started murdering on a really big scale only when it got access to lands with no law and no state institutions (because they destroyed them). And most of the murders took place not in death camps (which were BTW excluded from German law), but on-site, in otusands of villages and town, by German police/army/SS, or local guerilla fighters, bandits, marauders, paramilitary groups, just local people, or a mix of these. As a personal note, I'm quite scared by everything that happens in Europe, and especially in Poland for last few years. There's nationalist renaissance going on, and some previously marginalized views become mainstream, the state anti-minority propaganda is just unbearable (basically ~all Muslims are terrorists, all leftist want to flood us with them because that'll somehow make us more like USSR and as we know it's the leftists' goal, but we have Catholic Church and government that will defend us). Somehow feminists and LGBT are in the conspiracy too. People believe in all that crap to various degrees, but it's mainstream. You are ridiculed if you don't. Literal neonazis are still marginal (well, it's Poland, duh), but nationalism is fashionable suddenly, and even this week I've heard 2 old ladies in mall talking about the Muslims that want to kill us and the leftists that want them in so that Poland is communist again. It's surreal, and it only took 3 years. And we barely have any minorities in the first place. How much easier it would be in a country where there are real problems with minorities?

TeMPOraL 9y ago
Your point about collapse of state institutions seems to resonate with other historical genocides, like in Rwanda. OTOH, it seems to be accepted that during WW2, the "Final Solution" was pretty much state-sponsored and mechanistic. So I wonder whether there is more than one possible way people can turn into mass murderers? -- Being Polish myself, I'd like to offer my own view on some of your statements, without detracting from the main point. > all Muslims are terrorists (...) It's surreal, and it only took 3 years. That one has been brewing for a loooong time, pretty much ever since 9/11, and we can thank Western media for that. It's a hot topic only now, because it ties into EU's immigration crisis. The immigrants involved come from Muslim countries, so people went all "oh, so you want us to welcome terrorists now?". > Somehow feminists and LGBT are in the conspiracy too. They kind of had it coming, though :). People are not blind to the utter craziness of the extreme fringes of feminist movements in the US (which get all the media attention); all that "social justice warriors" mess was observable through social media, and so I've noticed years ago that people locally were starting to polarize about feminism too. It's not about women rights as much the combination of viewing things through traditional (catholic) values + conflating all feminism with crazy American SJWs. But I guess, as it is today and with current governance, it all got bundled together under "anti-Polish, pro-Union-of-Socialistic-European-Republics, crazy lefties". -- All in all, you make a solid point on just how quickly things can flip around. The change may be brewing for a long time, but when it happens, it's pretty swift.
- deleted 9y ago
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baud147258 9y ago
> Some of the most antisemitist states in WW2 had lots of Jews surviving German occupation (see France) I don't think that France would qualify as one of the most antisemitist state of WW 2. Since Dreyfus affair at the beginning of the XXth century, antisemitism was less and less prevalent. But I agree that having a unoccupied zone for most of the war and keeping most state institutions helped saving most of the Jews living in France before the war.
bobthechef 9y ago

by ajuc 9y ago

TeMPOraL 9y ago

Your point about collapse of state institutions seems to resonate with other historical genocides, like in Rwanda. OTOH, it seems to be accepted that during WW2, the "Final Solution" was pretty much state-sponsored and mechanistic. So I wonder whether there is more than one possible way people can turn into mass murderers? -- Being Polish myself, I'd like to offer my own view on some of your statements, without detracting from the main point. > all Muslims are terrorists (...) It's surreal, and it only took 3 years. That one has been brewing for a loooong time, pretty much ever since 9/11, and we can thank Western media for that. It's a hot topic only now, because it ties into EU's immigration crisis. The immigrants involved come from Muslim countries, so people went all "oh, so you want us to welcome terrorists now?". > Somehow feminists and LGBT are in the conspiracy too. They kind of had it coming, though :). People are not blind to the utter craziness of the extreme fringes of feminist movements in the US (which get all the media attention); all that "social justice warriors" mess was observable through social media, and so I've noticed years ago that people locally were starting to polarize about feminism too. It's not about women rights as much the combination of viewing things through traditional (catholic) values + conflating all feminism with crazy American SJWs. But I guess, as it is today and with current governance, it all got bundled together under "anti-Polish, pro-Union-of-Socialistic-European-Republics, crazy lefties". -- All in all, you make a solid point on just how quickly things can flip around. The change may be brewing for a long time, but when it happens, it's pretty swift.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

baud147258 9y ago

> Some of the most antisemitist states in WW2 had lots of Jews surviving German occupation (see France) I don't think that France would qualify as one of the most antisemitist state of WW 2. Since Dreyfus affair at the beginning of the XXth century, antisemitism was less and less prevalent. But I agree that having a unoccupied zone for most of the war and keeping most state institutions helped saving most of the Jews living in France before the war.

bobthechef 9y ago