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> The solution, in my opinion, would be to continue to erase traditional gender roles. If most of the men out there were ready to take on the homemaker role ent

> The solution, in my opinion, would be to continue to erase traditional gender roles. If most of the men out there were ready to take on the homemaker role enthusiastically, I would be far more willing to consider them as partners even if they make a fraction of what I do. The solution is not merely one sided. Women must also be willing to 'give up' those roles. Say what you will about men stepping up but my ongoing experience in a marriage with the woman as the bread winner and me as the home maker (with kids) is that my wife puts herself under a lot of 'self' pressure to be the classic mum (baking, cleaning, ironing, washing whatever). She also receives a ton of pressure from her mother and from her friends, intended or perceived it doesn't really matter, to maintain the 'mum to the kids and running the house' meme. Believe it or not we've had stand up arguments about her not doing the washing and ironing and leaving it to me, because she just can't let it go. The most recent one is wrestling control of the kitchen from her, not in the sense of shutting her out but letting me in. Even food purchasing, I began to solely do that last year but New Year, New Resolutions has brought a return to the 'we'll eat healthily, I'll cook every evening and bake at the weekend' pantomime. Despite the fact we already ate great food and she's away with work for at least 1 week in 6 and the weekly late evenings still in work or day trips away for conferences/meetings. All this might sound like one big complaint but really it's just to illustrate that it takes both sides to change in order to actually affect change.

arethuza 9y ago
Perhaps its because my wife is a commercial litigation lawyer - but we've ended up having a fairly firm "contract" as to who does what in our household. She shops, I cook. She cleans some parts of the house, I clean others. We both look after our own clothes. Just about everything has a clear demarcation and, in general, we do the bits we like (or at least dislike least). This has survived 27 years and kids so far.... :-)
- PuffinBlue 9y ago
  Maybe I'll be after you for that contract soon :-) We've developed a bit of a different style where I'm her 'safety net' for the things she still puts pressure on herself to do. Like washing/ironing and cooking. Cleaning has mainly been resolved and we do what's needed when needed. House organisation/upkeep is mine, all critical kids care is mine. But everything else we pretty much just communicate with each other. That seems to have been the key to success so far.
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    I wonder if that's enculturated from how she was raised or could be our remaining societal pressures/expectations of women (her friend group?) at work despite rhetoric otherwise?
    - PuffinBlue 9y ago
      I asked her - it's both.
      - JBlue42 9y ago
        Ah, yeah, there we go I guess. I know as a unmarried straight, white male that expectations are pretty low for me but married women (esp. with kids) seem to be in a catch-22 with all this. The Guardian had a series of articles a while back talking with women about careers and parenthood. It takes a lot of energy to fight against stuff you grew up with as well as conscious or unconscious societal forces. There's also the factor of having done one thing a certain way for a long time, getting a little possessive of it or thinking it's better. "Well, if you do it like this...". :-/ At least y'all are talking about it and you seem to be concerned with having a good balance.
seanalltogether 9y ago
While I'm not in the same situation as you, it has been interesting to watch my wife change into supermom since having our first kid. She has taken a 1 year maternity leave but with all the activities she does with the baby and the increased interest in cooking, cleaning, baking etc I have serious doubts that she'll want to return to work after the one year is over.
hycaria 9y ago
>New Resolutions has brought a return to the 'we'll eat healthily, I'll cook every evening and bake at the weekend' What do yo usually eat then ?
- PuffinBlue 9y ago
  Pretty much the same thing before and after the change. Fresh vegetables, rice dishes, fresh fish, little pasta, some red meat but mostly white, all home-cooked evening meals with some pre-made shop bought fresh soups and some fresh 'ready-meals'for lunches. The point I'm making in the section you quoted, and which agrees with your other comment about social mimicry, is that the pressure she faces from herself and others to continue to perform this 'traditional' role means now she is the one who said I'm going to do this, you're not going to. That's not a position she has to be in, it's one shes chosen and actively maintains precisely because of those pressures, not from necessity.
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
> The solution is not merely one sided. Thinking in terms of "sides", "them", "us" is harmful. Sexism can be internalized by anybody.
- Toast_25 9y ago
  What would be a better way to express his point? I see this brought up a lot, and I get it: we SHOULD be able to treat everybody equally regardless of the bits between their legs, but we haven't gotten there yet. I think it's counterproductive to be pedantic about language when it's serving a purpose and not hurting anyone. If someone brings up a better way to express this type of thing, then I'll be in total agreement, but I haven't found a better way to do so using the english language.
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    You cannot find a better a better sentence than one starting with "Women must also"? How about: "Some people, regardless of gender, can perpetuate or reinforce gender roles through speech, action or inaction." "Some people should be willing to give up traditional gender roles."
    - Toast_25 9y ago
      I think you're abstracting this a little too much. The sentence you constructed would be useful to describe this in general, but in this case PuffinBlue is talking about a specific case where this language isn't entirely useful. I agree that that type of language should be used in general (and I make a concerted effort to use it, even in my native tongue where sex is strongly denoted), but IMHO it's useless when describing specific scenarios.
moltar 9y ago
And if we are erasing the gender roles completely, then women should also start fixing faucets, toilets, taking out garbage at night and doing other traditionaly male jobs. So far I have never seen this happen.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  The frequency of needing to fix things versus doing routine chores is what makes those roles not comparable. Not that women also can't help fix things, and I'm sure some do.
  - moltar 9y ago
    It’s not comparable in terms of hours spent. But could be comparable in effort spent. You can’t trade 1 hour of McDonalds employee for 1 hour of car mechanic, for example. It’s not a fair trade. (And I’m not saying here that these are women’s and men’s roles. Just providing an example.)

arethuza 9y ago

Perhaps its because my wife is a commercial litigation lawyer - but we've ended up having a fairly firm "contract" as to who does what in our household. She shops, I cook. She cleans some parts of the house, I clean others. We both look after our own clothes. Just about everything has a clear demarcation and, in general, we do the bits we like (or at least dislike least). This has survived 27 years and kids so far.... :-)

PuffinBlue 9y ago
Maybe I'll be after you for that contract soon :-) We've developed a bit of a different style where I'm her 'safety net' for the things she still puts pressure on herself to do. Like washing/ironing and cooking. Cleaning has mainly been resolved and we do what's needed when needed. House organisation/upkeep is mine, all critical kids care is mine. But everything else we pretty much just communicate with each other. That seems to have been the key to success so far.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  I wonder if that's enculturated from how she was raised or could be our remaining societal pressures/expectations of women (her friend group?) at work despite rhetoric otherwise?
  - PuffinBlue 9y ago
    I asked her - it's both.
    - JBlue42 9y ago
      Ah, yeah, there we go I guess. I know as a unmarried straight, white male that expectations are pretty low for me but married women (esp. with kids) seem to be in a catch-22 with all this. The Guardian had a series of articles a while back talking with women about careers and parenthood. It takes a lot of energy to fight against stuff you grew up with as well as conscious or unconscious societal forces. There's also the factor of having done one thing a certain way for a long time, getting a little possessive of it or thinking it's better. "Well, if you do it like this...". :-/ At least y'all are talking about it and you seem to be concerned with having a good balance.

seanalltogether 9y ago

While I'm not in the same situation as you, it has been interesting to watch my wife change into supermom since having our first kid. She has taken a 1 year maternity leave but with all the activities she does with the baby and the increased interest in cooking, cleaning, baking etc I have serious doubts that she'll want to return to work after the one year is over.

hycaria 9y ago

>New Resolutions has brought a return to the 'we'll eat healthily, I'll cook every evening and bake at the weekend' What do yo usually eat then ?

PuffinBlue 9y ago
Pretty much the same thing before and after the change. Fresh vegetables, rice dishes, fresh fish, little pasta, some red meat but mostly white, all home-cooked evening meals with some pre-made shop bought fresh soups and some fresh 'ready-meals'for lunches. The point I'm making in the section you quoted, and which agrees with your other comment about social mimicry, is that the pressure she faces from herself and others to continue to perform this 'traditional' role means now she is the one who said I'm going to do this, you're not going to. That's not a position she has to be in, it's one shes chosen and actively maintains precisely because of those pressures, not from necessity.

eeZah7Ux 9y ago

> The solution is not merely one sided. Thinking in terms of "sides", "them", "us" is harmful. Sexism can be internalized by anybody.

Toast_25 9y ago
What would be a better way to express his point? I see this brought up a lot, and I get it: we SHOULD be able to treat everybody equally regardless of the bits between their legs, but we haven't gotten there yet. I think it's counterproductive to be pedantic about language when it's serving a purpose and not hurting anyone. If someone brings up a better way to express this type of thing, then I'll be in total agreement, but I haven't found a better way to do so using the english language.
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  You cannot find a better a better sentence than one starting with "Women must also"? How about: "Some people, regardless of gender, can perpetuate or reinforce gender roles through speech, action or inaction." "Some people should be willing to give up traditional gender roles."
  - Toast_25 9y ago
    I think you're abstracting this a little too much. The sentence you constructed would be useful to describe this in general, but in this case PuffinBlue is talking about a specific case where this language isn't entirely useful. I agree that that type of language should be used in general (and I make a concerted effort to use it, even in my native tongue where sex is strongly denoted), but IMHO it's useless when describing specific scenarios.

moltar 9y ago

And if we are erasing the gender roles completely, then women should also start fixing faucets, toilets, taking out garbage at night and doing other traditionaly male jobs. So far I have never seen this happen.

lotsofpulp 9y ago
The frequency of needing to fix things versus doing routine chores is what makes those roles not comparable. Not that women also can't help fix things, and I'm sure some do.
- moltar 9y ago
  It’s not comparable in terms of hours spent. But could be comparable in effort spent. You can’t trade 1 hour of McDonalds employee for 1 hour of car mechanic, for example. It’s not a fair trade. (And I’m not saying here that these are women’s and men’s roles. Just providing an example.)