4 ms·

> possession, shoplifting, public intox, loitering, driving with no insurance, etc. No violence, no real palpable victims other than themselves I'm with you on

> possession, shoplifting, public intox, loitering, driving with no insurance, etc. No violence, no real palpable victims other than themselves I'm with you on all but one of these -- driving with no insurance seems like a seriously bad idea, and should have consequences. Two tons of steel, even at moderate 35mph speed, is a lot of damn momentum and can do some real damage, and most certainly should be insured.

FussyZeus 9y ago
Fun fact: being poor means more than likely your credit score is low, which also means you pay more to insure a probably worse car. Because you know, your income dictates your likelihood to have an accident.
- burfog 9y ago
  Insurance cost is not solely due to likelihood of having an accident. The thing that matters is likelihood of causing financial loss/gain for the insurance company. If low-income people are not more likely to cause financial loss, then competition for customers would make the insurance cost equal. Some reasons why this is not so: Bad credit and the likelihood of an accident are correlated because both are affected by risk-taking behavior. People with high income are far less likely to make insurance claims for minor damage. They know that the deductible would prevent recovering most of the cost, and that the insurance cost would increase enough to offset what little was recovered. The claim payment is not worth the ongoing expense of higher premiums. People with low income are less likely to fund minor repairs without an insurance claim; they need the money to make repairs. There is a fraud problem. I've seen this in person, getting advice from a heroin dealer who lived next door. I damaged my car. He said I should just report that I found it that way, parked on the street.
crooked-v 9y ago
If you have no money, how do you pay for insurance to drive so you can get a job so you can have money?
- ilammy 9y ago
  How do you buy a car in the first place if you have no money?
- loco5niner 9y ago
  If you get in an accident without liability insurance, how do you pay the other persons damages? Seems a bit selfish to me.
ilammy 9y ago
At first I was about to write why this is dumb and you should not be liable for not having an insurance. But while spelling it out I realized that it's perfectly reasonable for the owners of vehicles (and other licensable, high-possible-damage-dealing and really-accessible-to-almost-anyone things) to have a compulsory insurance. Just because there's reasonable probability to cause more damage than you can compensate on your own, which reasonable person should understand (that being a requirement for having a license). And if you don't then it's negligence.
- erroneousfunk 9y ago
  Tangential, but this is the same reason mandatory health insurance makes sense. We go around living in our bodies, and they break down sometimes. It's the law in this country that emergency rooms can't turn people away without evaluating and stabilizing them, so you're always one accident away from creating huge costs for someone else if you don't plan for these costs with health insurance. In the case of car insurance, the injured party is the driver you run into, or the property you damage. In the case of health insurance, the injured party is the hospital/doctors. I always thought it was strange that so many states were totally on board with mandatory car insurance, but not mandatory health insurance.
  - chipperyman573 9y ago
    Yes, but you can only choose to own a car (the logistics of this are hazy, but you still have the option of not buying one). You didn't choose to be an organism that gets sick.
    - lagadu 9y ago
      It's my understanding that having a car in the US is effectively mandatory for the overwhelming majority of the working population, doesn't that effectively make it the same?
      - chipperyman573 9y ago
icantdrive55 9y ago
Most people carry 10/20/10 insurance premiums. 10 grand for medical. 20 grand for all medical bills incurred. 10 grand for the vechicle. That covers 10 grand for the medical expenses for one person. It's really a drop in the bucket if one gets into a auto accident. The level of coverage is so small, I wonder why we are even required to carry insurance some days. Now--I understand self-insuring. You have a nice car, assets(you don't want them attaching your home, or business), and want the best health care; you buy the best insurance, along with uninsured motorist insurance. You have a $40 grand vechicle, and want it replaced in an accident. Hell--yes, buy the Cadillac plan. I would, if I had a fancy car, and was used to the best health care. I pay $700/yr for 10/20/10 insurance. I haven't had a ticket, or accident in 25 years. I don't drive much, but can't prove it because I have an older analogue car. My point is the Insurance Lobby is the biggest lobby in my state, by a large margin--I believe. When they burp, my representatives pucker up. That Lobby is very powerful. If insurance is just so dam practical, and efficient; what's up with the huge, powerful Lobby? And the rediculiously low rates of minimum Insurance coverage? I couldn't imagine getting in a serious auto accident, and being reimbursed $10 grand. My hospital bill is going to bankrupt me, but I get 10 grand from the guy with no assets. Assets, I could sue. They say every penny helps, but come on, we all know just how hospitals/doctors bill. Some days, I think, most insurance, especially mandatory, is just a gift to the Insurance industry. I don't want yo get into a moral debate. You won. Yes--driving is a privilege. We should all be financially responsible citizens. It's the numbers that don't add up in my world. (As to the way the poor are exploited/treated in America, it just makes me sick. There's literally nowhere people can live for free. California has one place in Imperial County that the homeless can kinda live, without the fear of getting recruited into the penal system for essentially sleeping. I don't like my country anymore. I had an opportunity to live in France years ago. I regret not going. This is not the country I saluted to as a kid.)
coldtea 9y ago
>Two tons of steel, even at moderate 35mph speed, is a lot of damn momentum and can do some real damage, and most certainly should be insured. That would be fine and dandy, if being without a car was accommodated for (not just in the parole requirements, but also in other aspects of US life, having a job, city structure, etc). Else the car+insurance is just an additional penalty for poor people.
- loco5niner 9y ago
  And then they get in a wreck without insurance and both they and the other person are in a much worse situation. If you drive, be insured.
kaycebasques 9y ago
But a lot of the US is geographically set up so that you can't survive without a car.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  That's true. But that still doesn't justify driving one without insurance.

FussyZeus 9y ago

Fun fact: being poor means more than likely your credit score is low, which also means you pay more to insure a probably worse car. Because you know, your income dictates your likelihood to have an accident.

burfog 9y ago
Insurance cost is not solely due to likelihood of having an accident. The thing that matters is likelihood of causing financial loss/gain for the insurance company. If low-income people are not more likely to cause financial loss, then competition for customers would make the insurance cost equal. Some reasons why this is not so: Bad credit and the likelihood of an accident are correlated because both are affected by risk-taking behavior. People with high income are far less likely to make insurance claims for minor damage. They know that the deductible would prevent recovering most of the cost, and that the insurance cost would increase enough to offset what little was recovered. The claim payment is not worth the ongoing expense of higher premiums. People with low income are less likely to fund minor repairs without an insurance claim; they need the money to make repairs. There is a fraud problem. I've seen this in person, getting advice from a heroin dealer who lived next door. I damaged my car. He said I should just report that I found it that way, parked on the street.

crooked-v 9y ago

If you have no money, how do you pay for insurance to drive so you can get a job so you can have money?

ilammy 9y ago
How do you buy a car in the first place if you have no money?
loco5niner 9y ago
If you get in an accident without liability insurance, how do you pay the other persons damages? Seems a bit selfish to me.

ilammy 9y ago

At first I was about to write why this is dumb and you should not be liable for not having an insurance. But while spelling it out I realized that it's perfectly reasonable for the owners of vehicles (and other licensable, high-possible-damage-dealing and really-accessible-to-almost-anyone things) to have a compulsory insurance. Just because there's reasonable probability to cause more damage than you can compensate on your own, which reasonable person should understand (that being a requirement for having a license). And if you don't then it's negligence.

erroneousfunk 9y ago
Tangential, but this is the same reason mandatory health insurance makes sense. We go around living in our bodies, and they break down sometimes. It's the law in this country that emergency rooms can't turn people away without evaluating and stabilizing them, so you're always one accident away from creating huge costs for someone else if you don't plan for these costs with health insurance. In the case of car insurance, the injured party is the driver you run into, or the property you damage. In the case of health insurance, the injured party is the hospital/doctors. I always thought it was strange that so many states were totally on board with mandatory car insurance, but not mandatory health insurance.
- chipperyman573 9y ago
  Yes, but you can only choose to own a car (the logistics of this are hazy, but you still have the option of not buying one). You didn't choose to be an organism that gets sick.
  - lagadu 9y ago
    It's my understanding that having a car in the US is effectively mandatory for the overwhelming majority of the working population, doesn't that effectively make it the same?
    - chipperyman573 9y ago

icantdrive55 9y ago

Most people carry 10/20/10 insurance premiums. 10 grand for medical. 20 grand for all medical bills incurred. 10 grand for the vechicle. That covers 10 grand for the medical expenses for one person. It's really a drop in the bucket if one gets into a auto accident. The level of coverage is so small, I wonder why we are even required to carry insurance some days. Now--I understand self-insuring. You have a nice car, assets(you don't want them attaching your home, or business), and want the best health care; you buy the best insurance, along with uninsured motorist insurance. You have a $40 grand vechicle, and want it replaced in an accident. Hell--yes, buy the Cadillac plan. I would, if I had a fancy car, and was used to the best health care. I pay $700/yr for 10/20/10 insurance. I haven't had a ticket, or accident in 25 years. I don't drive much, but can't prove it because I have an older analogue car. My point is the Insurance Lobby is the biggest lobby in my state, by a large margin--I believe. When they burp, my representatives pucker up. That Lobby is very powerful. If insurance is just so dam practical, and efficient; what's up with the huge, powerful Lobby? And the rediculiously low rates of minimum Insurance coverage? I couldn't imagine getting in a serious auto accident, and being reimbursed $10 grand. My hospital bill is going to bankrupt me, but I get 10 grand from the guy with no assets. Assets, I could sue. They say every penny helps, but come on, we all know just how hospitals/doctors bill. Some days, I think, most insurance, especially mandatory, is just a gift to the Insurance industry. I don't want yo get into a moral debate. You won. Yes--driving is a privilege. We should all be financially responsible citizens. It's the numbers that don't add up in my world. (As to the way the poor are exploited/treated in America, it just makes me sick. There's literally nowhere people can live for free. California has one place in Imperial County that the homeless can kinda live, without the fear of getting recruited into the penal system for essentially sleeping. I don't like my country anymore. I had an opportunity to live in France years ago. I regret not going. This is not the country I saluted to as a kid.)

coldtea 9y ago

>Two tons of steel, even at moderate 35mph speed, is a lot of damn momentum and can do some real damage, and most certainly should be insured. That would be fine and dandy, if being without a car was accommodated for (not just in the parole requirements, but also in other aspects of US life, having a job, city structure, etc). Else the car+insurance is just an additional penalty for poor people.

loco5niner 9y ago
And then they get in a wreck without insurance and both they and the other person are in a much worse situation. If you drive, be insured.

kaycebasques 9y ago

But a lot of the US is geographically set up so that you can't survive without a car.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago
That's true. But that still doesn't justify driving one without insurance.