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You'd be destroying a culture of independence in the US punishing car drivers so much, and I don't think it would be nearly worth it. I greatly appreciate being

You'd be destroying a culture of independence in the US punishing car drivers so much, and I don't think it would be nearly worth it. I greatly appreciate being able to just go where I want without having to be beholden to public transit schedules and share the space with a bunch of strangers, and have my own temperature controls etc. The "cost" cars have to society and how "subsidized" they are is ridiculously overblown around here. I had to pay maybe $400 registering+inspecting my car in NY, transfering to NJ was a few more hundred dollars, I had to pay to take the permit test, insurance was $350/month in NY and it's $115/month in NJ, taxes used for roads benefit transit too obviously, and bad drivers pay their externalities in tickets and insurance settlements.

darksaints 9y ago
> You'd be destroying a culture of independence in the US punishing car drivers so much, and I don't think it would be nearly worth it. Is it really independence if you can't cover the costs you impose? Sounds an awful lot like the "oppression" felt by angsty teenagers without jobs when they're told they have to empty a dishwasher. > I greatly appreciate being able to just go where I want without having to be beholden to public transit schedules and share the space with a bunch of strangers, and have my own temperature controls etc. I'm sure you do. I'd greatly appreciate being able to fly private, for all of the same reasons, but unfortunately I can't afford it. If you want it, you should pay the cost to get it. And that cost is gonna be about $6/gallon in extra taxes. > The "cost" cars have to society and how "subsidized" they are is ridiculously overblown around here. [...] Still not enough. As long as cities, states, and the federal government are taking hundreds of billions of dollars out of the general fund to build and maintain roads, you aren't even close to covering your costs. And that would be before congestion charges, carbon taxes, appropriately priced bridge tolls, etc. What is overblown is the independence and financial responsibility of the average person who merely pays their bills for actions that are heavily subsidized.
- jimmaswell 9y ago
  It's fine for things to be subsidized and taxes collected so that a way of life is more attainable, that's how societies work. In all likelihood I'm subsidizing the people around here who use NJ transit in place of driving - I hardly have my car on for more than 10 minutes a day and it's around 30mpg. It's just part of a larger give-and-take that we all participate in, I pay for trains I don't use today and they pay for state parks they don't use tomorrow. Are you opposed to all government subsidies? It's not tenable for everybody to pay the full cost of everything they do. A prime example is healthcare.
  - darksaints 9y ago
    It's not okay to subsidize things in general, and especially things with massive negative externalities (like cars), when the person using that subsidy can easily afford it. And let's face it, the middle class can easily afford $8/gallon. Nobody wants to pay that, but they can afford it. As a proof that people can afford it, we have dozens of first world counties with strong middle classes that correctly price their road taxes. They do just fine. I've never understood the idea that we should just cross subsidize every single thing we can. It's absurd. Prices affect decisions, and when artificially low prices induce people to collectively make decisions that are bad for society, we should stop fucking subsidizing it. Imagine how much better our government would be if we took all of the taxes we take in, and stopped spending it all on things that are bad for society on behalf of people that can afford it or don't need it, and started spending it all on things that are good for society on behalf of people that need it but can't afford it.
    - LitFan 9y ago
      Replying to the lowest level comment because this is the one where you call it out specifically. These subsidies aren't driven by an outcry from the population, they're driven by groups of companies lobbying the government. Car companies would almost certainly lobby against reducing gas subsidies - it would cause people to reconsider buying a car. Lobbyists will also be on the lookout for services like waze carpool because it has the potential to cut in on their business (transit and taxis).
robotresearcher 9y ago
Nothing gives the feeling of independence more than stop and go traffic. Ah, freedom.
Tarq0n 9y ago
Gas is highly subsidized in the U.S.. Go look up European gas prices sometime. Also when referring to the full cost of cars, GPb probably means environmental (emissions) and political (oil wars) ones, not direct costs.
- 24gttghh 9y ago
  If by highly subsidized you mean taxed at a rate set in 1993 and not updated since, nor pinned to inflation, then yes gas[oline]/petrol is highly subsidized in the US[0]. Also fuel taxes rates in Europe are much higher[1]. You'll notice the US pays $0.46/3.78L(gallon) on average for federal+ state fuel tax, while Europe pays $1.24/L($4.69/gallon). That's an order of magnitude in higher fuel taxes. I also think we should be taxing gasoline at rates closer to what EU states tax, to help better cover the negative societal/environmental of burning fossil fuels. [0]https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=10 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=10 [1]https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/fuel-prices-and-taxes/assessment-7 https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/fuel-pric...

darksaints 9y ago

> You'd be destroying a culture of independence in the US punishing car drivers so much, and I don't think it would be nearly worth it. Is it really independence if you can't cover the costs you impose? Sounds an awful lot like the "oppression" felt by angsty teenagers without jobs when they're told they have to empty a dishwasher. > I greatly appreciate being able to just go where I want without having to be beholden to public transit schedules and share the space with a bunch of strangers, and have my own temperature controls etc. I'm sure you do. I'd greatly appreciate being able to fly private, for all of the same reasons, but unfortunately I can't afford it. If you want it, you should pay the cost to get it. And that cost is gonna be about $6/gallon in extra taxes. > The "cost" cars have to society and how "subsidized" they are is ridiculously overblown around here. [...] Still not enough. As long as cities, states, and the federal government are taking hundreds of billions of dollars out of the general fund to build and maintain roads, you aren't even close to covering your costs. And that would be before congestion charges, carbon taxes, appropriately priced bridge tolls, etc. What is overblown is the independence and financial responsibility of the average person who merely pays their bills for actions that are heavily subsidized.

jimmaswell 9y ago
It's fine for things to be subsidized and taxes collected so that a way of life is more attainable, that's how societies work. In all likelihood I'm subsidizing the people around here who use NJ transit in place of driving - I hardly have my car on for more than 10 minutes a day and it's around 30mpg. It's just part of a larger give-and-take that we all participate in, I pay for trains I don't use today and they pay for state parks they don't use tomorrow. Are you opposed to all government subsidies? It's not tenable for everybody to pay the full cost of everything they do. A prime example is healthcare.
- darksaints 9y ago
  It's not okay to subsidize things in general, and especially things with massive negative externalities (like cars), when the person using that subsidy can easily afford it. And let's face it, the middle class can easily afford $8/gallon. Nobody wants to pay that, but they can afford it. As a proof that people can afford it, we have dozens of first world counties with strong middle classes that correctly price their road taxes. They do just fine. I've never understood the idea that we should just cross subsidize every single thing we can. It's absurd. Prices affect decisions, and when artificially low prices induce people to collectively make decisions that are bad for society, we should stop fucking subsidizing it. Imagine how much better our government would be if we took all of the taxes we take in, and stopped spending it all on things that are bad for society on behalf of people that can afford it or don't need it, and started spending it all on things that are good for society on behalf of people that need it but can't afford it.
  - LitFan 9y ago
    Replying to the lowest level comment because this is the one where you call it out specifically. These subsidies aren't driven by an outcry from the population, they're driven by groups of companies lobbying the government. Car companies would almost certainly lobby against reducing gas subsidies - it would cause people to reconsider buying a car. Lobbyists will also be on the lookout for services like waze carpool because it has the potential to cut in on their business (transit and taxis).

robotresearcher 9y ago

Nothing gives the feeling of independence more than stop and go traffic. Ah, freedom.

Tarq0n 9y ago

Gas is highly subsidized in the U.S.. Go look up European gas prices sometime. Also when referring to the full cost of cars, GPb probably means environmental (emissions) and political (oil wars) ones, not direct costs.

24gttghh 9y ago
If by highly subsidized you mean taxed at a rate set in 1993 and not updated since, nor pinned to inflation, then yes gas[oline]/petrol is highly subsidized in the US[0]. Also fuel taxes rates in Europe are much higher[1]. You'll notice the US pays $0.46/3.78L(gallon) on average for federal+ state fuel tax, while Europe pays $1.24/L($4.69/gallon). That's an order of magnitude in higher fuel taxes. I also think we should be taxing gasoline at rates closer to what EU states tax, to help better cover the negative societal/environmental of burning fossil fuels. [0]https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=10 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=10 [1]https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/fuel-prices-and-taxes/assessment-7 https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/fuel-pric...