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I agree, the safety aspects of this are shocking and the 'be free of phones' puritanism is a bit dull. A _very_ strict code of conduct for attendees is somethi

I agree, the safety aspects of this are shocking and the 'be free of phones' puritanism is a bit dull. A _very_ strict code of conduct for attendees is something that can (and does) work. Jazz pianist, Keith Jarrett has been known to stop his 4-hour long improvisation sessions in some of the world's most prestigous venues mid-flow to dress down an attendee trying to film him. People don't make that mistake twice. https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2007/aug/09/keithjarrettsoutburstshouldbeapplauded https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2007/aug/09/keit... Unrelated, but I'd be way more on board with this if the DVD of the show wasn't £30 afterwards.

jonnycomputer 9y ago
My goodness, all those people who went to concerts before cell phones must have been so hardcore, taking risks like that. My guess is that if you put your phone away you're less likely to hurt from, you know, other people doing the stupid stuff they do at concerts. I understand that people want video, so they can post it, and get their dopa-soc on Facebook, or wherever, but seriously, musical artists (especially the ones who don't lipsync their concerts) feed off the audience's vibe. Its a two-way, not a one-way. Jack White isn't feeling the energy and is doing something about it. I say, Jack should just take out his phone and sit there recording the audience, until the get the hint.
- edgarvaldes 9y ago
  Yep, I don't get why "the safety aspects of this are shocking". Shocking?
  - ghaff 9y ago
    It's one thing to say that I like to be reachable by children, babysitter, aged mother, etc. if there's an issue. And OK, I get it. Norms and expectations have shifted with respect to how contactable people should be under many circumstances. But some of the comments here that make it sound like going out with no way for anyone to reach you was an invitation to mortal peril akin to jumping off a cliff in a wingsuit make me want to either laugh or cry.
    - lotharbot 9y ago
      > "an invitation to mortal peril" There have always been people with (physical and mental) health concerns or disabilities who need to be able to get hold of a caregiver on short notice. In the age of cell phones, it's much safer for them to go someplace crowded with their caregiver even if there's risk of being separated.
- throwaway43532 9y ago
  > My goodness, all those people who went to concerts before cell phones must have been so hardcore, taking risks like that. I get the point you're trying to make, but to me this just reads like gatekeeping. Cell phones are useful and they can make people safer. In a world with cell phones not having timely access to one is riskier. In a world without cell phones it's a moot point. The more interesting issue -- which others in this thread are discussing -- is whether the benefits of having a cell phone outweigh the harms people can cause with them, and whether policy can help strike an appropriate balance.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    I'd argue it's more comfort that you can be reached or reach someone than actual safety. But I don't really disagree with your broader point. This system doesn't seem very practical for a whole range of issues. Plenty of other live events have policies against recording and cell phone use and don't seem to have any serious problems enforcing those policies (or, indeed, need to do much "enforcement" at all). Perhaps rock concerts are different because of the type of crowd.
  - cglace 9y ago
    What type of information would you receive on your phone during a concert that would make you safer? I'm honestly curious.
    - throwaway43532 9y ago
      "Hey throwaway43532, [PERSON] just found out you're at [PLACE] and is on their way with a weapon. I contacted the authorities, but you need to get out of there now!" might be a severe example. There are many situations where a cell phone can allow you to send or receive information that could tip the scales in your favor.
      - paublyrne 9y ago
        The possibility of me ever getting a message remotely like that is so remote that the very idea could power the infinite improbability drive and take me to the restaurant at the end of the universe.
- msla 9y ago
  Sarcasm is one of the things which makes comment sections toxic. It's rude, dismissive, and, worst of all, leads to people retroactively claiming a comment which didn't go down well was sarcastic and that everyone who called them out for it was too stupid to notice.
  - oiuwpeoiur09908 9y ago
    Really? I find the opposite. What makes comment sections toxic TO ME is people on their soapbox scolding others and distracting from the topic at hand. Subjective experience and all that. Sarcasm has existed in human discourse for centuries. Gonna need more than your take on it to accept it's as damaging as you claim.
    - loeg 9y ago
      Sarcasm is an ok thing in mediums where there are side channel cues that the user is being sarcastic. Unfortunately, it doesn't carry well in writing, unless you're extremely clear about it. I don't think it adds anything to an online comments board / discussion. And in some cases, it detracts. It often just comes across as hostility.
- technofiend 9y ago
  >but seriously, musical artists (especially the ones who don't lipsync their concerts) feed off the audience's vibe. Its a two-way, not a one-way. Which is why Janis Joplin would famously yell at the audience that they better get up and dance in the aisles, or so I've been told by people old enough to be there.
- kalleboo 9y ago
  Here in Japan, most concerts have a strict no-photos policy. In smaller venues, I've seen this enforced by guards shining bright focused flashlights at you if you try to take a photo/video. Seems to work well. Some artists stop to do a "ok let's all take a photo together now" bit near the end for those who want a memory.
  - CaptainZapp 9y ago
    What I really loved about phone use (or better: not use) in Japan is the rules on trains. While eating some lovely fermented fish dish out of a bento box is completely acceptable using your phone to make calls is definitely not. My understanding was (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that in the Shinkansen you can move out of the car to make a call, in local public transport it's an absolute no!no! (well, probably the bento box is also not that hot an idea in public transport). With very, very few exceptions (mostly by foreigners) I've experienced this rule as respected. I had a hard time adapting back in Europe with all the noise and chatter going on permanently.
- maxehmookau 9y ago
  Look at the Manchester Arena bombing last year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing Thousands of unaccompanied teenagers subjected to a bomb attack. Without access to their phones, this could've been so much worse.
  - tomcooks 9y ago
    How worse and for what reasons? I don't understand how phones mitigate bomb attacks
    - maxehmookau 9y ago
      They allow children to get hold of their parents, order transport home, etc. If they've run away from the venue without first unlocking their phone, they end up wandering around outside, at night, alone after a significant event such as this.
      - rlpb 9y ago
        When I was a child, I managed to go events largely unsupervised and without a phone. I would already be told what to do in the event of getting separated in an emergency, such as having pre-arranged rendezvous points unique to my group. > If they've run away from the venue without first unlocking their phone, they end up wandering around outside, at night, alone after a significant event such as this. Only if their responsible adults don't take reasonable precautions. What happens when a child loses a phone or has one stolen? They should have a plan before going, whether phones are restricted or not.
staplers 9y ago
Agreed. This should be a policy and etiquette issue not a forcible restriction of human communication. Imagine your teenage child attends a concert and needs to call you to escape a dangerous situation. There are so many situations of nuance that a blanket ban disrupts in a negative way. This is a very shallow way to deal with a complicated issue.
- collyw 9y ago
  "Think of the children"
- icebraining 9y ago
  needs to call you to escape a dangerous situation Can you describe a scenario for me? Because I'm having a very hard time imagining one where the teenager is immediate peril (otherwise they could just unlock the phone in the next room) yet the best person to help them is not in the building. Maybe it's unfair, but it just sounds like helicopter parenting to me.
  - gknoy 9y ago
    Let's imagine that my child is at a party or other social engagement and they want deniable reason to escape. [0] There may be excessive peer pressure, illegal activity, or any other pre-arranged reason they may need to bail on something without incurring the loss of face that could be socially devastating. If I have my phone, they can text me with some pre-arranged message ("x"), and I will feign an emergency and get them out of the situation ASAP (or arrange for a friend to do similarly). Sure, they could just leave (or get a taxi?), but having a GTFO script lets them exit a situation without the social losses of having been perceived as "too scared" to cave to peer pressure. They can say, "My dad just called and said something major just came up, and he's on his way to get me. Yeah, I know, parents, right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" If their phone is locked up (or mine) there's a lot more friction to that interaction. 0: https://bertfulks.com/2017/02/23/x-plan-giving-your-kids-a-way-out-xplan/ https://bertfulks.com/2017/02/23/x-plan-giving-your-kids-a-w...
    - 9y ago
oceanghost 9y ago
Father John Misty performs some songs in a giant iPhone looking picture frame. The meta-irony is pretty delicious. http://futureisfiction.com/blog/father-john-misty-at-hardly-strictly-bluegrass-golden-gate-park/ http://futureisfiction.com/blog/father-john-misty-at-hardly-...
wwweston 9y ago
I've seen the code of conduct thing work even before smartphones were ubiquitous -- even the open mic night at Eddie's Attic in Georgia was an event where the manager made it very clear that the venue was a Listening Room, not a place for talking over the performance, and if you wanted to use your phone in any noticeable way, you needed to step outside. And I saw him dress down and kick out a customer that decided to ignore the rule. It's harder with larger crowds, but I think a policy with clear expectations that can result in you losing your privilege of attending is a better choice than asking people to check valuable (and useful) property at the door.
microtherion 9y ago
I don't think Jarrett is generally considered the voice of reason. In fact, some promoters have gotten so tired of his histrionics that they've ruled out ever booking him again. And before it was cell phones, he berated people for coughing.
gkya 9y ago
Why do the musician has to do vigilante work interrupting what everybody came there for? Tell off idiots in the audience instead of playing his gig?

jonnycomputer 9y ago

My goodness, all those people who went to concerts before cell phones must have been so hardcore, taking risks like that. My guess is that if you put your phone away you're less likely to hurt from, you know, other people doing the stupid stuff they do at concerts. I understand that people want video, so they can post it, and get their dopa-soc on Facebook, or wherever, but seriously, musical artists (especially the ones who don't lipsync their concerts) feed off the audience's vibe. Its a two-way, not a one-way. Jack White isn't feeling the energy and is doing something about it. I say, Jack should just take out his phone and sit there recording the audience, until the get the hint.

edgarvaldes 9y ago
Yep, I don't get why "the safety aspects of this are shocking". Shocking?
- ghaff 9y ago
  It's one thing to say that I like to be reachable by children, babysitter, aged mother, etc. if there's an issue. And OK, I get it. Norms and expectations have shifted with respect to how contactable people should be under many circumstances. But some of the comments here that make it sound like going out with no way for anyone to reach you was an invitation to mortal peril akin to jumping off a cliff in a wingsuit make me want to either laugh or cry.
  - lotharbot 9y ago
    > "an invitation to mortal peril" There have always been people with (physical and mental) health concerns or disabilities who need to be able to get hold of a caregiver on short notice. In the age of cell phones, it's much safer for them to go someplace crowded with their caregiver even if there's risk of being separated.
throwaway43532 9y ago
> My goodness, all those people who went to concerts before cell phones must have been so hardcore, taking risks like that. I get the point you're trying to make, but to me this just reads like gatekeeping. Cell phones are useful and they can make people safer. In a world with cell phones not having timely access to one is riskier. In a world without cell phones it's a moot point. The more interesting issue -- which others in this thread are discussing -- is whether the benefits of having a cell phone outweigh the harms people can cause with them, and whether policy can help strike an appropriate balance.
- ghaff 9y ago
  I'd argue it's more comfort that you can be reached or reach someone than actual safety. But I don't really disagree with your broader point. This system doesn't seem very practical for a whole range of issues. Plenty of other live events have policies against recording and cell phone use and don't seem to have any serious problems enforcing those policies (or, indeed, need to do much "enforcement" at all). Perhaps rock concerts are different because of the type of crowd.
- cglace 9y ago
  What type of information would you receive on your phone during a concert that would make you safer? I'm honestly curious.
  - throwaway43532 9y ago
    "Hey throwaway43532, [PERSON] just found out you're at [PLACE] and is on their way with a weapon. I contacted the authorities, but you need to get out of there now!" might be a severe example. There are many situations where a cell phone can allow you to send or receive information that could tip the scales in your favor.
    - paublyrne 9y ago
      The possibility of me ever getting a message remotely like that is so remote that the very idea could power the infinite improbability drive and take me to the restaurant at the end of the universe.
msla 9y ago
Sarcasm is one of the things which makes comment sections toxic. It's rude, dismissive, and, worst of all, leads to people retroactively claiming a comment which didn't go down well was sarcastic and that everyone who called them out for it was too stupid to notice.
- oiuwpeoiur09908 9y ago
  Really? I find the opposite. What makes comment sections toxic TO ME is people on their soapbox scolding others and distracting from the topic at hand. Subjective experience and all that. Sarcasm has existed in human discourse for centuries. Gonna need more than your take on it to accept it's as damaging as you claim.
  - loeg 9y ago
    Sarcasm is an ok thing in mediums where there are side channel cues that the user is being sarcastic. Unfortunately, it doesn't carry well in writing, unless you're extremely clear about it. I don't think it adds anything to an online comments board / discussion. And in some cases, it detracts. It often just comes across as hostility.
technofiend 9y ago
>but seriously, musical artists (especially the ones who don't lipsync their concerts) feed off the audience's vibe. Its a two-way, not a one-way. Which is why Janis Joplin would famously yell at the audience that they better get up and dance in the aisles, or so I've been told by people old enough to be there.
kalleboo 9y ago
Here in Japan, most concerts have a strict no-photos policy. In smaller venues, I've seen this enforced by guards shining bright focused flashlights at you if you try to take a photo/video. Seems to work well. Some artists stop to do a "ok let's all take a photo together now" bit near the end for those who want a memory.
- CaptainZapp 9y ago
  What I really loved about phone use (or better: not use) in Japan is the rules on trains. While eating some lovely fermented fish dish out of a bento box is completely acceptable using your phone to make calls is definitely not. My understanding was (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that in the Shinkansen you can move out of the car to make a call, in local public transport it's an absolute no!no! (well, probably the bento box is also not that hot an idea in public transport). With very, very few exceptions (mostly by foreigners) I've experienced this rule as respected. I had a hard time adapting back in Europe with all the noise and chatter going on permanently.
maxehmookau 9y ago
Look at the Manchester Arena bombing last year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing Thousands of unaccompanied teenagers subjected to a bomb attack. Without access to their phones, this could've been so much worse.
- tomcooks 9y ago
  How worse and for what reasons? I don't understand how phones mitigate bomb attacks
  - maxehmookau 9y ago
    They allow children to get hold of their parents, order transport home, etc. If they've run away from the venue without first unlocking their phone, they end up wandering around outside, at night, alone after a significant event such as this.
    - rlpb 9y ago
      When I was a child, I managed to go events largely unsupervised and without a phone. I would already be told what to do in the event of getting separated in an emergency, such as having pre-arranged rendezvous points unique to my group. > If they've run away from the venue without first unlocking their phone, they end up wandering around outside, at night, alone after a significant event such as this. Only if their responsible adults don't take reasonable precautions. What happens when a child loses a phone or has one stolen? They should have a plan before going, whether phones are restricted or not.

staplers 9y ago

Agreed. This should be a policy and etiquette issue not a forcible restriction of human communication. Imagine your teenage child attends a concert and needs to call you to escape a dangerous situation. There are so many situations of nuance that a blanket ban disrupts in a negative way. This is a very shallow way to deal with a complicated issue.

collyw 9y ago
"Think of the children"
icebraining 9y ago
needs to call you to escape a dangerous situation Can you describe a scenario for me? Because I'm having a very hard time imagining one where the teenager is immediate peril (otherwise they could just unlock the phone in the next room) yet the best person to help them is not in the building. Maybe it's unfair, but it just sounds like helicopter parenting to me.
- gknoy 9y ago
  Let's imagine that my child is at a party or other social engagement and they want deniable reason to escape. [0] There may be excessive peer pressure, illegal activity, or any other pre-arranged reason they may need to bail on something without incurring the loss of face that could be socially devastating. If I have my phone, they can text me with some pre-arranged message ("x"), and I will feign an emergency and get them out of the situation ASAP (or arrange for a friend to do similarly). Sure, they could just leave (or get a taxi?), but having a GTFO script lets them exit a situation without the social losses of having been perceived as "too scared" to cave to peer pressure. They can say, "My dad just called and said something major just came up, and he's on his way to get me. Yeah, I know, parents, right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" If their phone is locked up (or mine) there's a lot more friction to that interaction. 0: https://bertfulks.com/2017/02/23/x-plan-giving-your-kids-a-way-out-xplan/ https://bertfulks.com/2017/02/23/x-plan-giving-your-kids-a-w...
  - 9y ago

oceanghost 9y ago

Father John Misty performs some songs in a giant iPhone looking picture frame. The meta-irony is pretty delicious. http://futureisfiction.com/blog/father-john-misty-at-hardly-strictly-bluegrass-golden-gate-park/ http://futureisfiction.com/blog/father-john-misty-at-hardly-...

wwweston 9y ago

I've seen the code of conduct thing work even before smartphones were ubiquitous -- even the open mic night at Eddie's Attic in Georgia was an event where the manager made it very clear that the venue was a Listening Room, not a place for talking over the performance, and if you wanted to use your phone in any noticeable way, you needed to step outside. And I saw him dress down and kick out a customer that decided to ignore the rule. It's harder with larger crowds, but I think a policy with clear expectations that can result in you losing your privilege of attending is a better choice than asking people to check valuable (and useful) property at the door.

microtherion 9y ago

I don't think Jarrett is generally considered the voice of reason. In fact, some promoters have gotten so tired of his histrionics that they've ruled out ever booking him again. And before it was cell phones, he berated people for coughing.

gkya 9y ago

Why do the musician has to do vigilante work interrupting what everybody came there for? Tell off idiots in the audience instead of playing his gig?