5 ms·

The fermi paradox bothered me quite a bit, like all paradoxes and they should bother everybody. They are a flag that something does not add up and there must be

by poelzi 9y ago

The fermi paradox bothered me quite a bit, like all paradoxes and they should bother everybody. They are a flag that something does not add up and there must be some sort of wrong assumption somewhere. As most of our combined "knowledge" does not add up correctly just one example is quantum mechanics and relativity - no, they do not add and therefor need higher dimensions to have a model (a emergency hatch). It is quite funny when you understand that 2 general believed assumptions are the root cause for all the strangeness in our psysical models and very far down the line it explains why we will never receive alien EM signals in the area we a searching in - really makes no sense to scan there. Non the less, I appreciate their efforts.

vanderZwan 9y ago
> It is quite funny when you understand that 2 general believed assumptions are the root cause for all the strangeness in our psysical models Eh.. no? That's literally the opposite of how it works: it's not two strange assumptions causing all this weirdness, it's two very strange observed phenomena for which these two models give the best predictions, so far.
- poelzi 9y ago
  That is not what I meant. Both are objectively measurable results - of course if you look at critic voices the details in their implementation differ, but in general yes. But there are different ways of implementing something and which one you choose depends on assumptions. If you use Field Equations for describing relativity you need a certain set of assumptions. If you use a different mechanism to describe relativity, you need another set. You can't build a theory without assumptions.
pavel_lishin 9y ago
It's not really a paradox, right? It's just a big equation and we're guessing at the variables.
- Chathamization 9y ago
  We also have no reason to believe that we'd be able to detect other civilizations, even if there were millions out there. They might well be using other means of communication. Even if they were using the very thing we were looking for, it's still likely we would miss them - even if they were right next door to us. From SETI's FAQ[1]: > If an extraterrestrial civilization has a SETI project similar to our own, could they detect signals from Earth? > In general, no. Most earthly transmissions are too weak to be found by equipment similar to ours at the distance of even the nearest star. But there are some important exceptions. High-powered radars and the Arecibo broadcast of 1974 (which lasted for only three minutes) could be detected at distances of tens to hundreds of light-years with a setup similar to our best SETI experiments. It always seemed odd to me that people call this a paradox. [1] https://www.seti.org/faq#obs1 https://www.seti.org/faq#obs1
  - poelzi 9y ago
    From the perspective I gathered through understanding a very beautiful unified theory (not my model) - this is exactly my point. EM waves as we use it are useless for long distance communications. I even doubt that those waves will still be detectable in a different solar system as the general assumptions that our vacuum is a very homogeneous is not true for me (the underlaying dimensions are for me, but not the vaccum as we know it). I have much more effects that cause disturbances of such waves. Inside a solar system, there are also better techniques that are more stable in propagation then our Hertz EM waves. But unfortunately, we adopted a form of Maxwell Equations that are not suitable to describe the phenomena (the original equations in quaternion math can however). Nicolas Tesla did a lot of research in this area, but it is not very well known/understood. (From the model I'm using 3 forms are derived. As far as I dug into Tesla, he worked with 1 form. The 3rd form is the interesting one but very hard to produce /detect.)
- tabletiptop 9y ago
  That would be the drake equation. The fermi paradox is just a philosophical question.
- EthanHeilman 9y ago
jcranmer 9y ago
Fundamentally, there are four main responses to the Fermi paradox: 1. We really are the first. 2. Interstellar communication and travel is effectively impossible. 3. Interstellar communication and travel is possible, but is not executed in a sustained way for various cultural reasons. 4. Alien life exists, but we haven't or can't find it. All of those explanations are very plausible answers. In fact, the notion that we "ought" to have found alien life by now is itself quite difficult to argue, because it relies on extrapolating estimates from 0 data points (note that we don't know how to become an interstellar species, and it's debatable if we even yet have the technological level to become an interplanetary one).

by poelzi 9y ago

vanderZwan 9y ago

> It is quite funny when you understand that 2 general believed assumptions are the root cause for all the strangeness in our psysical models Eh.. no? That's literally the opposite of how it works: it's not two strange assumptions causing all this weirdness, it's two very strange observed phenomena for which these two models give the best predictions, so far.

poelzi 9y ago
That is not what I meant. Both are objectively measurable results - of course if you look at critic voices the details in their implementation differ, but in general yes. But there are different ways of implementing something and which one you choose depends on assumptions. If you use Field Equations for describing relativity you need a certain set of assumptions. If you use a different mechanism to describe relativity, you need another set. You can't build a theory without assumptions.

pavel_lishin 9y ago

It's not really a paradox, right? It's just a big equation and we're guessing at the variables.

Chathamization 9y ago
We also have no reason to believe that we'd be able to detect other civilizations, even if there were millions out there. They might well be using other means of communication. Even if they were using the very thing we were looking for, it's still likely we would miss them - even if they were right next door to us. From SETI's FAQ[1]: > If an extraterrestrial civilization has a SETI project similar to our own, could they detect signals from Earth? > In general, no. Most earthly transmissions are too weak to be found by equipment similar to ours at the distance of even the nearest star. But there are some important exceptions. High-powered radars and the Arecibo broadcast of 1974 (which lasted for only three minutes) could be detected at distances of tens to hundreds of light-years with a setup similar to our best SETI experiments. It always seemed odd to me that people call this a paradox. [1] https://www.seti.org/faq#obs1 https://www.seti.org/faq#obs1
- poelzi 9y ago
  From the perspective I gathered through understanding a very beautiful unified theory (not my model) - this is exactly my point. EM waves as we use it are useless for long distance communications. I even doubt that those waves will still be detectable in a different solar system as the general assumptions that our vacuum is a very homogeneous is not true for me (the underlaying dimensions are for me, but not the vaccum as we know it). I have much more effects that cause disturbances of such waves. Inside a solar system, there are also better techniques that are more stable in propagation then our Hertz EM waves. But unfortunately, we adopted a form of Maxwell Equations that are not suitable to describe the phenomena (the original equations in quaternion math can however). Nicolas Tesla did a lot of research in this area, but it is not very well known/understood. (From the model I'm using 3 forms are derived. As far as I dug into Tesla, he worked with 1 form. The 3rd form is the interesting one but very hard to produce /detect.)
tabletiptop 9y ago
That would be the drake equation. The fermi paradox is just a philosophical question.
EthanHeilman 9y ago

jcranmer 9y ago

Fundamentally, there are four main responses to the Fermi paradox: 1. We really are the first. 2. Interstellar communication and travel is effectively impossible. 3. Interstellar communication and travel is possible, but is not executed in a sustained way for various cultural reasons. 4. Alien life exists, but we haven't or can't find it. All of those explanations are very plausible answers. In fact, the notion that we "ought" to have found alien life by now is itself quite difficult to argue, because it relies on extrapolating estimates from 0 data points (note that we don't know how to become an interstellar species, and it's debatable if we even yet have the technological level to become an interplanetary one).