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What annoys me as a someone not trained in statistics is that these discussions are always abstract in-principle arguments about what proper statistics should b

What annoys me as a someone not trained in statistics is that these discussions are always abstract in-principle arguments about what proper statistics should be like. Meanwhile, we have a real paper with real p-values, why not discuss the validity of that? > SRT Consistent Long-Term Retrieval improved with curcumin (ES = 0.63, p = 0.002) but not with placebo (ES = 0.06, p = 0.8; between-group: ES = 0.68, p = 0.05). Curcumin also improved SRT Total (ES = 0.53, p = 0.002), visual memory (BVMT-R Recall: ES = 0.50, p = 0.01; BVMT-R Delay: ES = 0.51, p = 0.006), and attention (ES = 0.96, p < 0.0001) compared with placebo (ES = 0.28, p = 0.1; between-group: ES = 0.67, p = 0.04). FDDNP binding decreased significantly in the amygdala with curcumin (ES = −0.41, p = 0.04) compared with placebo (ES = 0.08, p = 0.6; between-group: ES = 0.48, p = 0.07). In the hypothalamus, FDDNP binding did not change with curcumin (ES = −0.30, p = 0.2), but increased with placebo (ES = 0.26, p = 0.05; between-group: ES = 0.55, p = 0.02). I can see that there are a lot of p-values around 0.05, but that the supposed improvements have much lower p-values: (ES = 0.63, p = 0.002) SRT Consistent Long-Term Retrieval (ES = 0.53, p = 0.002) SRT Total (ES = 0.50, p = 0.01) BVMT-R Recall (ES = 0.51, p = 0.006) BVMT-R Delay (ES = 0.96, p < 0.0001) attention What does this imply? Is it a good sign, or does it actually make it more fishy? pythonslange's comment[0] seems to suggest the latter, claiming that none of the other pre-registered tests are mentioned, without any explanation why. (eyeing that "attention" one, if this does hold up under scrutiny, could I expect tumeric-based ADD medication somewhere in the future, without all the nasty side-effects of my current amphetamine-based options?) [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16229693 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16229693

roganp 9y ago
Here is the problem: If there is an actual large effect size, then you can detect this in small samples. However, the opposite is not true. In a small sample, spurious large effects are MORE likely, not less likely (outliers have a greater impact in a small sample). See: http://andrewgelman.com/2017/08/16/also-holding-back-progress-make-mistakes-label-correct-arguments-nonsensical/ http://andrewgelman.com/2017/08/16/also-holding-back-progres...
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  Thank you, that is an explanation that I can actually apply to this result.
closed 9y ago
I agree with the other commenter, and Gelman's blog is a good place to start. There are very clear, concrete statistical arguments, but they are difficult to summarize in the comments section of HN. The gist is like this. Imagine that someone had people play 20 different slot machines. Then they went into a private room and looked at the results for each machine. After, they come out with the results of 5 of the machines and say, "look, our slot machines pay out at a higher than chance level!". Do you believe them? I hope not. If only 4 machines had done well, maybe they would have shown only 4, or 3, etc.. They've effectively stacked the deck. On the other hand, suppose someone said they were running an honest experiment with 20 slot machines. How many machines would you expect them to report on?
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  I can follow your analogy, but it doesn't quite add up. The researchers took a group of people and submitted each of them to an "extensive neuropsychologist test battery". That's not just testing 20 different slot machines, that's testing 20 different designs of slot machines. (Also, each person does each test on their own, which is the equivalent of having them not only play twenty different models, but a unique production per person unit per model) In that light, the claim that all slot machines have a high pay-out chance is obviously suspicious, but would coming back and saying "these five designs have a higher than chance level of winning!" be an incorrect conclusion? If each slot machine types is unique, no. But if one slot machine design is known to have a flaw, and if it shares this flaw with another design, and if that other design does not show the same increased performance, then things get really suspicious. So the question becomes: do we know how strongly correlated the results of these tests typically are? If that is a lot (which I would expect to be true with at least some of these tests), the absence of the other tests is suspicious. If it is low, it might be less of an issue.
  - closed 9y ago
    You hit on a lot of important points. The key here is that they are making a claim about memory, a psychological construct, that is being represented by some of their measures (batteries). But their batteries also purport to measure other psychological constructs, too. To connect this with the slot machine analogy, it might be like if groups of slot machines had different colors, and they chose the color that yielded the best results. > but would coming back and saying "these five designs have a higher than chance level of winning!" be an incorrect conclusion? It would be if you didn't take into account that you analyzed 20 machines in your analysis .
philipodonnell 9y ago
I know you want this to be true given your stated disatisfication with the current state of attention deficit medication, and I know that arguing about statistics seems pointless, but this is n=40 (21 test 19 control). No matter how good your p-values are or how many different tests you run, there's just nothing to take away from this right now. That is not to say its worthless. If there are a number of repeated similar trials by different researchers and this study is combined with those in a larger meta-study that continue to show significant results, then it could end up being a very important study to look back on. But right now its just 40 people eating refined turmeric and taking memory tests...
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  Yeah, I'm aware of my own bias. But maybe I phrased myself badly: it's not that I think that arguing about statistics is pointless, it's that this discussion often feels like it becomes disconnected from the paper at hand. The replies to my complaint are nice counterexamples of that, though.
  - philipodonnell 9y ago
    Most discussions about research findings are like that and HN is probably no exception. :-) "The sample size is too small" or "they didn't control for [x] effect" are the sort of gut armchair comments people make offhand, knowing it probably applies to any study if you get challenged. I assume that's the sentiment you reacted to and I agree it can be frustrating.

roganp 9y ago

Here is the problem: If there is an actual large effect size, then you can detect this in small samples. However, the opposite is not true. In a small sample, spurious large effects are MORE likely, not less likely (outliers have a greater impact in a small sample). See: http://andrewgelman.com/2017/08/16/also-holding-back-progress-make-mistakes-label-correct-arguments-nonsensical/ http://andrewgelman.com/2017/08/16/also-holding-back-progres...

vanderZwan 9y ago
Thank you, that is an explanation that I can actually apply to this result.

closed 9y ago

I agree with the other commenter, and Gelman's blog is a good place to start. There are very clear, concrete statistical arguments, but they are difficult to summarize in the comments section of HN. The gist is like this. Imagine that someone had people play 20 different slot machines. Then they went into a private room and looked at the results for each machine. After, they come out with the results of 5 of the machines and say, "look, our slot machines pay out at a higher than chance level!". Do you believe them? I hope not. If only 4 machines had done well, maybe they would have shown only 4, or 3, etc.. They've effectively stacked the deck. On the other hand, suppose someone said they were running an honest experiment with 20 slot machines. How many machines would you expect them to report on?

vanderZwan 9y ago
I can follow your analogy, but it doesn't quite add up. The researchers took a group of people and submitted each of them to an "extensive neuropsychologist test battery". That's not just testing 20 different slot machines, that's testing 20 different designs of slot machines. (Also, each person does each test on their own, which is the equivalent of having them not only play twenty different models, but a unique production per person unit per model) In that light, the claim that all slot machines have a high pay-out chance is obviously suspicious, but would coming back and saying "these five designs have a higher than chance level of winning!" be an incorrect conclusion? If each slot machine types is unique, no. But if one slot machine design is known to have a flaw, and if it shares this flaw with another design, and if that other design does not show the same increased performance, then things get really suspicious. So the question becomes: do we know how strongly correlated the results of these tests typically are? If that is a lot (which I would expect to be true with at least some of these tests), the absence of the other tests is suspicious. If it is low, it might be less of an issue.
- closed 9y ago
  You hit on a lot of important points. The key here is that they are making a claim about memory, a psychological construct, that is being represented by some of their measures (batteries). But their batteries also purport to measure other psychological constructs, too. To connect this with the slot machine analogy, it might be like if groups of slot machines had different colors, and they chose the color that yielded the best results. > but would coming back and saying "these five designs have a higher than chance level of winning!" be an incorrect conclusion? It would be if you didn't take into account that you analyzed 20 machines in your analysis .

philipodonnell 9y ago

I know you want this to be true given your stated disatisfication with the current state of attention deficit medication, and I know that arguing about statistics seems pointless, but this is n=40 (21 test 19 control). No matter how good your p-values are or how many different tests you run, there's just nothing to take away from this right now. That is not to say its worthless. If there are a number of repeated similar trials by different researchers and this study is combined with those in a larger meta-study that continue to show significant results, then it could end up being a very important study to look back on. But right now its just 40 people eating refined turmeric and taking memory tests...

vanderZwan 9y ago
Yeah, I'm aware of my own bias. But maybe I phrased myself badly: it's not that I think that arguing about statistics is pointless, it's that this discussion often feels like it becomes disconnected from the paper at hand. The replies to my complaint are nice counterexamples of that, though.
- philipodonnell 9y ago
  Most discussions about research findings are like that and HN is probably no exception. :-) "The sample size is too small" or "they didn't control for [x] effect" are the sort of gut armchair comments people make offhand, knowing it probably applies to any study if you get challenged. I assume that's the sentiment you reacted to and I agree it can be frustrating.