8 ms·

“The thought process that went into building these applications, Facebook being the first of them … was all about: ‘How do we consume as much of your time and c

“The thought process that went into building these applications, Facebook being the first of them … was all about: ‘How do we consume as much of your time and conscious attention as possible?’ That means that we need to sort of give you a little dopamine hit every once in a while, because someone liked or commented on a photo or a post or whatever. And that’s going to get you to contribute more content and that’s going to get you … more likes and comments,” he said I wish it was possible to disable showing points in HN for this exact same reason. Both in stories and my comments. I'm sure Greasemonkey could help but I'd like this embraced by HN, if possible.

fapjacks 9y ago
I've written a dumb extension to do this on Chrome [0]. All points disappear and all shades of grey become black. [0] https://github.com/fapjacks/antihnbs https://github.com/fapjacks/antihnbs
- vog 9y ago
  This would have been a great bookmarklet, no need for a browser extension. Unfortunately, bookmarklets no longer work as easily and as reliably as they used to work.
  - davchana 9y ago
    Not sure, but is it not that bookmarklets need to be clicked by user on every page visit, whereas Extension can auto process every page visit without user intervention?
    - vog 9y ago
      Good point. Although a bookmarklet can also ignore the current site and just open a new tab, it can't embed custom JavaScript into that new tab. But at least it can open a new tab with a full-page iframe, which was just enough for me to implement my autoreload bookmarklet. [1] Apart from that, I believe there are meta-extensions which provide a generic way to inject JavaScript into every page. This is just one extension, but manages multiple bookmarklets (or whatever they call these snippets). [1] https://vog.github.io/autoreload/ https://vog.github.io/autoreload/
  - xab9 9y ago
    tampermonkey's good
  - retSava 9y ago
    bookmarklet to make all text black, no exception. javascript:(function(){var%20i,x;for(i=0;=document.getElementsByTagName("*")i];++i)x.style.color="#000000";})();
  - zamber 9y ago
    No need for a bookmarklet. It can be easily done with CSS.
    - vog 9y ago
      What's the difference in this specific case? How do I automatically apply a custom CSS onto an external website? Is this somehow simpler than injecting JS into an external website?
- majewsky 9y ago
  FYI: You can publish Chrome extensions on addons.mozilla.org as well. They usually work without any changes.
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    Ah, good to know! Thanks. Yet another cool little feature from Mozilla.
Chathamization 9y ago
Timing plays a role into this too. If you're interested in getting into a discussion on a submission, you need to check the site frequently because after a few hours the discussion is going to be dead. Likewise, you need to make the comment fairly quickly instead of waiting a day or two to chime in. And after making a comment, there's pressure to check frequently to see if you got replies - again, if you wait for too long nobody is going to notice your reply back to them. With the old web forums you could wait a day or two to respond or a day or two to check for replies. But the timing dynamic here (and on many other sites) encourages much more frequent checks and much more rapid-fire conversations.
- juanuys 9y ago
  I usually come here from Hacker Newsletter, i.e. a few days late and leave a comment that no-one will ever read.
- hanklazard 9y ago
  Your points still stand but in case you haven’t heard about it, someone around here created hnreplies.com to help mitigate the “frequent checking” problem. Its awesome and free. (I have nothing to do with it, just an appreciative fan)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- fsavard 9y ago
  I don't often comment on HN and this (the short-timed nature of discussions) is one of the main reasons. The other main reason is that I have a high threshold for considering my participation is worthy of other people's attention. More often then not, when that threshold is crossed, I realize I'm too late and my post will just sit there, unread. Aren't there others who think it'd be great to have a "sticky" or "follow" button, in essence signalling "I'm going to follow this discussion for a few days / weeks, because I'm genuinely interested"? Also if there was a way to easily "suscribe" to a thread (email alerts) that'd help. (Someone mentioned hnreplies.com in a sibling comment, never tried it, but I'll check it out)
hux_ 9y ago
Agree. Delay showing pts for a few days maybe the other option. The points do help in surfacing articles and comments. Nobody needs to see them instantly.
- slazaro 9y ago
  Why showing them then? If it's useful to not have them the first few days, why is it useful after? I don't have any numbers, but I'd bet 99% of visits to comment pages are made in the first day of the article being submitted (i.e. when it's in the front page or second page).
  - hux_ 9y ago
    I don't know how many people need the 'micro dopamine high' to contribute and engage. If that number is high engagement might drop off as they may go elsewhere to get the fix.
    - arca_vorago 9y ago
      The flip side is that those of us who tend to have controversial opinions get negative dopamine hits (downvotes, often with no response or retort) and participate less. I mostly just don't participate in upvoting or downvoting at all (here or on reddit), unless something really catches my attention. Personally, I still think this is one thing slashdot had right. Random selection of certain established users as "moderator" who could not only give a comment a point rating between 0-5, but also a descriptor (funny, offtopic, etc). Honestly I miss the slashdot days of old.
syshum 9y ago
Yes but then how will I know which comments are valid and acceptable.... We must have points for I am unable to think for myself and need the points system to tell me which views are correct /s
- lifeisstillgood 9y ago
  Because the points system replaces online the offline signals you, and we all, use for just that non-thinking - signals like facial disgust, like if a restaurant is full or empty, like other people in a room taking notice of one person. we need social signals to determine how the society we are in is functioning. points, likes, follows are very poor proxies - but we need something. if those proxies are making billions for some people that's not the fault of our need for social alignment.
  - irishcoffee 9y ago
    Or maybe the "signals" are thoughtful responses to comments...
bezr 9y ago
I made an account just to comment on this post. I’ve been a lurker for a little while, just getting the feel of HN. I never planned on making an account so I don’t see upvotes like I do on reddit. I will legitimately log out of my account after this comment because I have enjoyed the experience so much more. Thanks for being a awesome HN, keep it up.
johnchristopher 9y ago
That's a bad idea disguised as good one. Comments aren't born in a vacuum, there is a story and a pattern to people that helps put things into perspective when reading a string of comments.
- gtirloni 9y ago
  I'm not suggesting points shouldn't exist, just that they shouldn't be prominently showed (to people who don't want to see them).
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
z3t4 9y ago
idea: Give points randomly: When an up-vote is given, a random member gets the point. Seeing your comment or submission on the front page is a reward on itself, no need to get extra points too. This can be developed further by randomly selecting only from those who has up-voted the submission, so there would be a higher chance of getting negative points by up-voting "flame-bait" topics.
- majewsky 9y ago
  > When an up-vote is given, a random member gets the point. Eh, what? How is the pool of admissible members chosen? Surely you don't mean "any member gets a point"? > Seeing your comment or submission on the front page is a reward on itself Comments don't show up on the front page, and you don't get points when your submissions are upvoted.
  - j_s 9y ago
    >you don't get points when your submissions are upvoted Points are awarded but it is not 1-to-1 with upvotes.
captainmuon 9y ago
I've read that again and again, but my personal experience is just the opposite. I haven't felt "positive reinforcement" or "dopamine hits" for quite some time on Facebook. Since it shifted from social network to social media, it doesn't "give" me anything anymore. It is tedious, and I don't check it because I feel compelled, or even enjoy it, but I have to make a concious effort to login and check every now and then, like you check mail or your bank website. Back when it was more about the profile, about "stalking" friends and connecting with real-life acquaintances, it was much more addictive. Features like "you know this person via these two steps", poking, but also subtle clues like the timing of when somebody visited your page, or that they commented on an old photo (meaning they browsed your gallery)... that is all missing now. Facebook was so addictive because it enabled you to obsess about social connections. Friends, crushes, people with common hobbies, and so on.
- Infernal 9y ago
  I hadn't fully realized this, but I think you nailed it. I stopped using Facebook regularly well over 5 years ago, and the only reason I have an account is because many people in my neighborhood are on a Facebook Messenger thread together (kind of an informal thing). When I did use Facebook daily, it was for all the reasons you mention. If I ever log onto the site now I'm immediately driven away, it's just a bunch of advertising and nothing I care to see.
- gerbilly 9y ago
  > I haven't felt "positive reinforcement" or "dopamine hits" for quite some time on Facebook. A 'feed' does not have to be overtly social to have addictive potential. Suppose you visit a news site, not a social one, no likes, hearts or any feedback from other users. The stories appear in a feed that you can refresh. 80% of the stories are of no interest to you, but 20% are great. You can't predict when an interesting story will appear. This configuration is enough to create "positive reinforcement" and the unpredictability can foster addictive behaviour. When you encounter an article you like, it's a bit like sifting through sand and finding a gold nugget, you get a dopamine hit for that. The fact that the nuggets only come up randomly and are hard to predict is called an "intermittent reinforcement schedule" and is known to elicit a high rate of response from the subject.

fapjacks 9y ago

I've written a dumb extension to do this on Chrome [0]. All points disappear and all shades of grey become black. [0] https://github.com/fapjacks/antihnbs https://github.com/fapjacks/antihnbs

vog 9y ago
This would have been a great bookmarklet, no need for a browser extension. Unfortunately, bookmarklets no longer work as easily and as reliably as they used to work.
- davchana 9y ago
  Not sure, but is it not that bookmarklets need to be clicked by user on every page visit, whereas Extension can auto process every page visit without user intervention?
  - vog 9y ago
    Good point. Although a bookmarklet can also ignore the current site and just open a new tab, it can't embed custom JavaScript into that new tab. But at least it can open a new tab with a full-page iframe, which was just enough for me to implement my autoreload bookmarklet. [1] Apart from that, I believe there are meta-extensions which provide a generic way to inject JavaScript into every page. This is just one extension, but manages multiple bookmarklets (or whatever they call these snippets). [1] https://vog.github.io/autoreload/ https://vog.github.io/autoreload/
- xab9 9y ago
  tampermonkey's good
- retSava 9y ago
  bookmarklet to make all text black, no exception. javascript:(function(){var%20i,x;for(i=0;=document.getElementsByTagName("*")i];++i)x.style.color="#000000";})();
- zamber 9y ago
  No need for a bookmarklet. It can be easily done with CSS.
  - vog 9y ago
    What's the difference in this specific case? How do I automatically apply a custom CSS onto an external website? Is this somehow simpler than injecting JS into an external website?
majewsky 9y ago
FYI: You can publish Chrome extensions on addons.mozilla.org as well. They usually work without any changes.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  Ah, good to know! Thanks. Yet another cool little feature from Mozilla.

Chathamization 9y ago

Timing plays a role into this too. If you're interested in getting into a discussion on a submission, you need to check the site frequently because after a few hours the discussion is going to be dead. Likewise, you need to make the comment fairly quickly instead of waiting a day or two to chime in. And after making a comment, there's pressure to check frequently to see if you got replies - again, if you wait for too long nobody is going to notice your reply back to them. With the old web forums you could wait a day or two to respond or a day or two to check for replies. But the timing dynamic here (and on many other sites) encourages much more frequent checks and much more rapid-fire conversations.

juanuys 9y ago
I usually come here from Hacker Newsletter, i.e. a few days late and leave a comment that no-one will ever read.
hanklazard 9y ago
Your points still stand but in case you haven’t heard about it, someone around here created hnreplies.com to help mitigate the “frequent checking” problem. Its awesome and free. (I have nothing to do with it, just an appreciative fan)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
fsavard 9y ago
I don't often comment on HN and this (the short-timed nature of discussions) is one of the main reasons. The other main reason is that I have a high threshold for considering my participation is worthy of other people's attention. More often then not, when that threshold is crossed, I realize I'm too late and my post will just sit there, unread. Aren't there others who think it'd be great to have a "sticky" or "follow" button, in essence signalling "I'm going to follow this discussion for a few days / weeks, because I'm genuinely interested"? Also if there was a way to easily "suscribe" to a thread (email alerts) that'd help. (Someone mentioned hnreplies.com in a sibling comment, never tried it, but I'll check it out)

hux_ 9y ago

Agree. Delay showing pts for a few days maybe the other option. The points do help in surfacing articles and comments. Nobody needs to see them instantly.

slazaro 9y ago
Why showing them then? If it's useful to not have them the first few days, why is it useful after? I don't have any numbers, but I'd bet 99% of visits to comment pages are made in the first day of the article being submitted (i.e. when it's in the front page or second page).
- hux_ 9y ago
  I don't know how many people need the 'micro dopamine high' to contribute and engage. If that number is high engagement might drop off as they may go elsewhere to get the fix.
  - arca_vorago 9y ago
    The flip side is that those of us who tend to have controversial opinions get negative dopamine hits (downvotes, often with no response or retort) and participate less. I mostly just don't participate in upvoting or downvoting at all (here or on reddit), unless something really catches my attention. Personally, I still think this is one thing slashdot had right. Random selection of certain established users as "moderator" who could not only give a comment a point rating between 0-5, but also a descriptor (funny, offtopic, etc). Honestly I miss the slashdot days of old.

syshum 9y ago

Yes but then how will I know which comments are valid and acceptable.... We must have points for I am unable to think for myself and need the points system to tell me which views are correct /s

lifeisstillgood 9y ago
Because the points system replaces online the offline signals you, and we all, use for just that non-thinking - signals like facial disgust, like if a restaurant is full or empty, like other people in a room taking notice of one person. we need social signals to determine how the society we are in is functioning. points, likes, follows are very poor proxies - but we need something. if those proxies are making billions for some people that's not the fault of our need for social alignment.
- irishcoffee 9y ago
  Or maybe the "signals" are thoughtful responses to comments...

bezr 9y ago

I made an account just to comment on this post. I’ve been a lurker for a little while, just getting the feel of HN. I never planned on making an account so I don’t see upvotes like I do on reddit. I will legitimately log out of my account after this comment because I have enjoyed the experience so much more. Thanks for being a awesome HN, keep it up.

johnchristopher 9y ago

That's a bad idea disguised as good one. Comments aren't born in a vacuum, there is a story and a pattern to people that helps put things into perspective when reading a string of comments.

gtirloni 9y ago
I'm not suggesting points shouldn't exist, just that they shouldn't be prominently showed (to people who don't want to see them).
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

z3t4 9y ago

idea: Give points randomly: When an up-vote is given, a random member gets the point. Seeing your comment or submission on the front page is a reward on itself, no need to get extra points too. This can be developed further by randomly selecting only from those who has up-voted the submission, so there would be a higher chance of getting negative points by up-voting "flame-bait" topics.

majewsky 9y ago
> When an up-vote is given, a random member gets the point. Eh, what? How is the pool of admissible members chosen? Surely you don't mean "any member gets a point"? > Seeing your comment or submission on the front page is a reward on itself Comments don't show up on the front page, and you don't get points when your submissions are upvoted.
- j_s 9y ago
  >you don't get points when your submissions are upvoted Points are awarded but it is not 1-to-1 with upvotes.

captainmuon 9y ago

I've read that again and again, but my personal experience is just the opposite. I haven't felt "positive reinforcement" or "dopamine hits" for quite some time on Facebook. Since it shifted from social network to social media, it doesn't "give" me anything anymore. It is tedious, and I don't check it because I feel compelled, or even enjoy it, but I have to make a concious effort to login and check every now and then, like you check mail or your bank website. Back when it was more about the profile, about "stalking" friends and connecting with real-life acquaintances, it was much more addictive. Features like "you know this person via these two steps", poking, but also subtle clues like the timing of when somebody visited your page, or that they commented on an old photo (meaning they browsed your gallery)... that is all missing now. Facebook was so addictive because it enabled you to obsess about social connections. Friends, crushes, people with common hobbies, and so on.

Infernal 9y ago
I hadn't fully realized this, but I think you nailed it. I stopped using Facebook regularly well over 5 years ago, and the only reason I have an account is because many people in my neighborhood are on a Facebook Messenger thread together (kind of an informal thing). When I did use Facebook daily, it was for all the reasons you mention. If I ever log onto the site now I'm immediately driven away, it's just a bunch of advertising and nothing I care to see.
gerbilly 9y ago
> I haven't felt "positive reinforcement" or "dopamine hits" for quite some time on Facebook. A 'feed' does not have to be overtly social to have addictive potential. Suppose you visit a news site, not a social one, no likes, hearts or any feedback from other users. The stories appear in a feed that you can refresh. 80% of the stories are of no interest to you, but 20% are great. You can't predict when an interesting story will appear. This configuration is enough to create "positive reinforcement" and the unpredictability can foster addictive behaviour. When you encounter an article you like, it's a bit like sifting through sand and finding a gold nugget, you get a dopamine hit for that. The fact that the nuggets only come up randomly and are hard to predict is called an "intermittent reinforcement schedule" and is known to elicit a high rate of response from the subject.