13 ms·

Totally false. It is a technology problem. Apple is at the forefront of engineering technical ways to make it impossible for them to decipher your data. Specif

Totally false. It is a technology problem. Apple is at the forefront of engineering technical ways to make it impossible for them to decipher your data. Specifically HealthKit data "is stored in Data Protection class Complete Protection, which means it is accessible only after a user enters their passcode or uses Touch ID or Face ID to unlock the device." Furthermore, "When configured for iCloud storage, Health data is synced between devices and secured by encryption that protects the data both in transit and at rest. Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes Backups. It is not included in either unencrypted iTunes backups or iCloud Backup."[1] You also provide zero evidence that "Apple will sell your data" even if they could get it. Nothing in that citation about using China-based servers supports it. [1] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

gerdesj 9y ago
"Totally false. It is a technology problem. Apple is at the forefront of engineering technical ways to make it impossible for them to decipher your data." Who on earth uses terms like "Totally false" as a leader? I will wholeheartedly apologise to someone wielding English as a second language but I doubt I'll be saying soz for this comment, noddy. EDIT: soz mate (just skip read your past comments) - looks like you briefly channelled Mr Trump by accident 8)
garmaine 9y ago
Encrypted in transit and at rest doesn’t mean they don’t have the keys.
- karlshea 9y ago
  They don't have the SEP key (that is generated in and never leaves the Secure Enclave) which it's presumably encrypted with.
  - bluejekyll 9y ago
    When the data is in transit between devices, what encryption is being used? I mean I could speculate a manner in which it’s possible to restrict this between two devices and their respective secure enclaves, but is Apple doing that? This would mean that when backed up in Apple’s servers l, they’d have to backup per device... maybe they do?
    - karlshea 9y ago
      They do all sorts of device key exchange, if you haven't watched the talk at Black Hat I'd highly recommend it: https://youtu.be/BLGFriOKz6U?t=6m55s https://youtu.be/BLGFriOKz6U?t=6m55s (link goes to beginning of Secure Enclave content, and later on in the talk he discusses iCloud which uses the SEP keys)
      - bluejekyll 9y ago
        Excellent. I’ll take a look at that, thanks for the post.
    - abalone 9y ago
      The white paper goes into some detail on the encryption and key exchange mechanisms. Basically devices exchange public keys so their private keys never have to (and physically can’t) leave the SEP. Backups are different. Those are not encrypted with device keys because obviously you want to recover from loss of device and restore to a brand new one. But if you’re not comfortable with that, you can do local encrypted backups with your own password via iTunes. And as noted the most sensitive data like HealthKit is only included in encrypted backups. White paper also discusses a special escrow service for backing up your keychain, incidentally.
      - karlshea 9y ago
        > White paper also discusses a special escrow service for backing up your keychain, incidentally. My foggy understanding is that iCloud backups are encrypted with a key stored in iCloud Keychain, which is encrypted within the hardware security module escrow service they run, so after iOS 10 they can't actually decrypt your backup. Edit: oh, I replied to you below as well. That video has the details but it's been awhile since I watched it.
  - comstock 9y ago
    iCloud backups can be decrypted by Apple, because they have the key the data is encrypted with serverside. Are you saying this data is different?
    - karmelapple 9y ago
      Yes. The Secure Enclave stores the data like a fingerprint, and that data - to the best of my knowledge - is not backed up to the cloud.
      - comstock 9y ago
        Right, but we’re talking about medical data. Which in lieu of further information I assume would be backed up in the same way as iCloud data. Unless there are statements to the contrary?
      - StevenRayOrr 9y ago
        "Health data can be stored in iCloud. When configured for iCloud storage, Health data is synced between devices and secured by encryption that protects the data both in transit and at rest. Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes Backups. It is not included in either unencrypted iTunes backups or iCloud Backup." https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf -- pg. 29 under the Health Data subsection. Edit: @bobwaycott points out the significance of this quote in the below child comment.
        bobwaycott 9y ago
        > Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes Backups. It is not included in either unencrypted iTunes backups or iCloud Backup. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, your quote disagrees with your assertion. Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes backups. It is not included in unencrypted iTunes backups or in iCloud backups. Of course, that’s just backups. It does say it can be configured to be stored and synced between devices via iCloud, where it is encrypted in transit and at rest. That appears to indicate it is stored pre-encrypted, and does not indicate there is any way to access it outside ones devices.
mankash666 9y ago
I don't know if you're naive or not aware of Chinese law. The government of China will block any service whose data they cannot read. Apple is FULLY compliant with Chinese law. They even bent over backwards to enable payments via WeChat, which they'd never allow outside China.
- abalone 9y ago
  You’re throwing words like “naive” around but you don’t cite a shred of evidence. Apple’s encryption is at the device level, i.e. before it ever leaves the device. If they turned it off for China it would be easily observable and instantly reported everywhere. By all account iMessage is one of the few end to end encrypted messaging systems that works in China. You are almost right about China’s general stance but, if you actually did some research, you’d see so far they have tolerated Apple.
  - yellow_postit 9y ago
    Has Apple ever publicly disclosed that they don't follow this aspect of Chinese law?
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      Since apple hasn't been banned in China, I think that's all the evidence you need to deduce they are following all local laws.
  - sooheon 9y ago
    iCloud users in China must agree to this: “understand and agree that Apple and G.C.B.D. will have access to all data that you store on this service, including the right to share, exchange and disclose all user data, including content, to and between each other under applicable law.”
    - abalone 9y ago
      There is Apple-accessible iCloud data, like anything accessible via iCloud.com. The “all” part of that is probably just over broad. Like I said, technical people would be able to observe if Apple secretly changed their security architecture for China. Apple would also get sued if they didn’t disclose that your iMessages are no longer end to end encrypted when messaging someone in China. China just hasn’t cracked down on it because it’s not that popular.
hvidgaard 9y ago
I'm playing devils advocate now. It may be securely stored today, but we cannot audit the system, and we cannot audit the updates to the system. If Apple wanted they could change this overnight without telling anyone.
- nojvek 9y ago
  That’s a very fair argument for what is considered a blackbox. However i’m pretty sure my data stored by doctors and hospitals is less secure than my pictures in my iPhone.
reacharavindh 9y ago
So, do users in China get this feature or not? That will give a clue about whether it is possible for Apple to decrypt the data or not... It is impossible to trust a closed source system that cannot be audited independently. If Apple caved to the Chinese government, perhaps they will in the future cave to your local government too? Or some insurance company too? They're a business after all!

gerdesj 9y ago

"Totally false. It is a technology problem. Apple is at the forefront of engineering technical ways to make it impossible for them to decipher your data." Who on earth uses terms like "Totally false" as a leader? I will wholeheartedly apologise to someone wielding English as a second language but I doubt I'll be saying soz for this comment, noddy. EDIT: soz mate (just skip read your past comments) - looks like you briefly channelled Mr Trump by accident 8)

garmaine 9y ago

Encrypted in transit and at rest doesn’t mean they don’t have the keys.

karlshea 9y ago
They don't have the SEP key (that is generated in and never leaves the Secure Enclave) which it's presumably encrypted with.
- bluejekyll 9y ago
  When the data is in transit between devices, what encryption is being used? I mean I could speculate a manner in which it’s possible to restrict this between two devices and their respective secure enclaves, but is Apple doing that? This would mean that when backed up in Apple’s servers l, they’d have to backup per device... maybe they do?
  - karlshea 9y ago
    They do all sorts of device key exchange, if you haven't watched the talk at Black Hat I'd highly recommend it: https://youtu.be/BLGFriOKz6U?t=6m55s https://youtu.be/BLGFriOKz6U?t=6m55s (link goes to beginning of Secure Enclave content, and later on in the talk he discusses iCloud which uses the SEP keys)
    - bluejekyll 9y ago
      Excellent. I’ll take a look at that, thanks for the post.
  - abalone 9y ago
    The white paper goes into some detail on the encryption and key exchange mechanisms. Basically devices exchange public keys so their private keys never have to (and physically can’t) leave the SEP. Backups are different. Those are not encrypted with device keys because obviously you want to recover from loss of device and restore to a brand new one. But if you’re not comfortable with that, you can do local encrypted backups with your own password via iTunes. And as noted the most sensitive data like HealthKit is only included in encrypted backups. White paper also discusses a special escrow service for backing up your keychain, incidentally.
    - karlshea 9y ago
      > White paper also discusses a special escrow service for backing up your keychain, incidentally. My foggy understanding is that iCloud backups are encrypted with a key stored in iCloud Keychain, which is encrypted within the hardware security module escrow service they run, so after iOS 10 they can't actually decrypt your backup. Edit: oh, I replied to you below as well. That video has the details but it's been awhile since I watched it.
- comstock 9y ago
  iCloud backups can be decrypted by Apple, because they have the key the data is encrypted with serverside. Are you saying this data is different?
  - karmelapple 9y ago
    Yes. The Secure Enclave stores the data like a fingerprint, and that data - to the best of my knowledge - is not backed up to the cloud.
    - comstock 9y ago
      Right, but we’re talking about medical data. Which in lieu of further information I assume would be backed up in the same way as iCloud data. Unless there are statements to the contrary?
    - StevenRayOrr 9y ago
      "Health data can be stored in iCloud. When configured for iCloud storage, Health data is synced between devices and secured by encryption that protects the data both in transit and at rest. Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes Backups. It is not included in either unencrypted iTunes backups or iCloud Backup." https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf -- pg. 29 under the Health Data subsection. Edit: @bobwaycott points out the significance of this quote in the below child comment.
      - bobwaycott 9y ago
        > Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes Backups. It is not included in either unencrypted iTunes backups or iCloud Backup. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, your quote disagrees with your assertion. Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes backups. It is not included in unencrypted iTunes backups or in iCloud backups. Of course, that’s just backups. It does say it can be configured to be stored and synced between devices via iCloud, where it is encrypted in transit and at rest. That appears to indicate it is stored pre-encrypted, and does not indicate there is any way to access it outside ones devices.

mankash666 9y ago

I don't know if you're naive or not aware of Chinese law. The government of China will block any service whose data they cannot read. Apple is FULLY compliant with Chinese law. They even bent over backwards to enable payments via WeChat, which they'd never allow outside China.

abalone 9y ago
You’re throwing words like “naive” around but you don’t cite a shred of evidence. Apple’s encryption is at the device level, i.e. before it ever leaves the device. If they turned it off for China it would be easily observable and instantly reported everywhere. By all account iMessage is one of the few end to end encrypted messaging systems that works in China. You are almost right about China’s general stance but, if you actually did some research, you’d see so far they have tolerated Apple.
- yellow_postit 9y ago
  Has Apple ever publicly disclosed that they don't follow this aspect of Chinese law?
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    Since apple hasn't been banned in China, I think that's all the evidence you need to deduce they are following all local laws.
- sooheon 9y ago
  iCloud users in China must agree to this: “understand and agree that Apple and G.C.B.D. will have access to all data that you store on this service, including the right to share, exchange and disclose all user data, including content, to and between each other under applicable law.”
  - abalone 9y ago
    There is Apple-accessible iCloud data, like anything accessible via iCloud.com. The “all” part of that is probably just over broad. Like I said, technical people would be able to observe if Apple secretly changed their security architecture for China. Apple would also get sued if they didn’t disclose that your iMessages are no longer end to end encrypted when messaging someone in China. China just hasn’t cracked down on it because it’s not that popular.

hvidgaard 9y ago

I'm playing devils advocate now. It may be securely stored today, but we cannot audit the system, and we cannot audit the updates to the system. If Apple wanted they could change this overnight without telling anyone.

nojvek 9y ago
That’s a very fair argument for what is considered a blackbox. However i’m pretty sure my data stored by doctors and hospitals is less secure than my pictures in my iPhone.

reacharavindh 9y ago

So, do users in China get this feature or not? That will give a clue about whether it is possible for Apple to decrypt the data or not... It is impossible to trust a closed source system that cannot be audited independently. If Apple caved to the Chinese government, perhaps they will in the future cave to your local government too? Or some insurance company too? They're a business after all!