4 ms·

I am not a lawyer, but my gut says that a hilarious, tongue-in-cheek financial crime is still a financial crime. Any lawyers want to weigh in on whether you ha

I am not a lawyer, but my gut says that a hilarious, tongue-in-cheek financial crime is still a financial crime. Any lawyers want to weigh in on whether you have some sort of first-amendment right to parody crimes?

sushid 9y ago
Not a lawyer either but I don't think you can if you are operating an actual Ponzi scheme, transparent or not.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  A Ponzi scheme cannot be transparent; if it's transparent, it's probably a pyramid scheme. A Ponzi is something where the victims are duped into believing there is something else being invested in, while early entrants are paid with funds from later entrants; a pyramid scheme is where the early entrants know their money comes from later entrants (and usually, though this isn't critical, are actively involved in recruiting.)
BLanen 9y ago
I remember this too.
conanbatt 9y ago
> parody crimes Superb concept.
- fixermark 9y ago
  "I'm stealing all your stuff. But ironically."
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    https://www.joeyskaggs.com/html/cat.html https://www.joeyskaggs.com/html/cat.html
stale2002 9y ago
Is gambling using smart contracts illegal? Because that's all this scheme is. The problem with ponzi schemes is the fraud. It is not the gambling part of it.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Is gambling using smart contracts illegal? In most US jurisdictions, gambling is generally prohibited, though there are generally some specific exceptions (often with licensing requirements). So...probably. But this seems to be illegal independently of gambling laws. > The problem with ponzi schemes is the fraud. It is not the gambling part of it. Pyramid schemes that aren't Ponzi schemes are also illegal; while it's called PonziCoin, it's actually more of a (passive) pyramid scheme.
iaw 9y ago
"Your honor, my client did not defraud the plaintiffs with a financial crime. It was a parody financial crime but the plaintiff mistook the parody for sarcasm and genuinely bought the parody product. This case should be dismissed based on the parody financial crimes precedent set by Virginia v. Horwitz Brothers"
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  "Your Honor, my client never intended for the plaintiffs to cash the souvenir checks he issued." (it may be I spend too much of my non-tech-internet time reading /r/legaladvice)
- stale2002 9y ago
  Funnily, though, you used the word defraud. How can you commit fraud if you are telling the truth?
dsacco 9y ago
Performance art does not preclude prosecution for a crime.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Here's a prank performance art piece that accidentally turned into a legitimate business: https://www.joeyskaggs.com/works/bad-guys-talent-management-agency/ https://www.joeyskaggs.com/works/bad-guys-talent-management-...
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I wouldn't call it a prank performance art piece. More like an attempt to help a friend break into show business that was unexpectedly successful.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      I thought that Joey Skaggs regarded his body of work as pranks and performance art pieces.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        I wouldn't know. I only know what this one article says. Suffice it to say, I wish my life were more like that. I am envious of his unexpected success.
superasn 9y ago
Not to mention the author also seems to work at Stripe (a financial institution). I hope they would have a good enough sense of humor to take it as a joke only.
stcredzero 9y ago
Any lawyers want to weigh in on whether you have some sort of first-amendment right to parody crimes? "I'm gonna make this pencil disappear."
michaelbuckbee 9y ago
(Also not a lawyer) But, I've wondered about this with various other cryptocurrencies + ICOs. They all seem have TOS clauses that give them very generous outs and that are often in direct conflict with their marketing messages.
everdev 9y ago
I called the SEC last year and selling a coin claiming it'll go up in value without registering as a security is illegal, even if it's a joke. Even if you don't say it'll go up in value but people believe it will, it's illegal. I'm sure there are legal implications of running a Ponzi scheme too. I'm positive that telling someone about the illegal thing you're doing does not absolve you of responsibility.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > I'm sure there are legal implications of running a Ponzi scheme too. I'm positive that telling someone about the illegal thing you're doing does not absolve you of responsibility. In the specific case of a Ponzi scheme, which by definition is a scam where “investors” are decieved as to the nature of the operation, disclosing the mechanics make it not a Ponzi. It does seem to still be an illegal pyramid scheme, though it doesn't rely on an entrants recruiting their own downline, instead having a shared downline.
  - everdev 9y ago
    Good catch, I guess it's theoretically impossible to announce a Ponzi scheme then. Queue someone launching PyramidCoin.
unstatusthequo 9y ago
Yeah I'm a lawyer and we represent ICOs and have defended various blockchain crypto clients in admin actions and SEC problem. Looks like I'll have a new client soon!
thrillgore 9y ago
"Your honor, he did do this, but ironically." "Well i'm settled. Case dismissed!"

sushid 9y ago

Not a lawyer either but I don't think you can if you are operating an actual Ponzi scheme, transparent or not.

dragonwriter 9y ago
A Ponzi scheme cannot be transparent; if it's transparent, it's probably a pyramid scheme. A Ponzi is something where the victims are duped into believing there is something else being invested in, while early entrants are paid with funds from later entrants; a pyramid scheme is where the early entrants know their money comes from later entrants (and usually, though this isn't critical, are actively involved in recruiting.)

BLanen 9y ago

I remember this too.

conanbatt 9y ago

> parody crimes Superb concept.

fixermark 9y ago
"I'm stealing all your stuff. But ironically."
- stcredzero 9y ago
  https://www.joeyskaggs.com/html/cat.html https://www.joeyskaggs.com/html/cat.html

stale2002 9y ago

Is gambling using smart contracts illegal? Because that's all this scheme is. The problem with ponzi schemes is the fraud. It is not the gambling part of it.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> Is gambling using smart contracts illegal? In most US jurisdictions, gambling is generally prohibited, though there are generally some specific exceptions (often with licensing requirements). So...probably. But this seems to be illegal independently of gambling laws. > The problem with ponzi schemes is the fraud. It is not the gambling part of it. Pyramid schemes that aren't Ponzi schemes are also illegal; while it's called PonziCoin, it's actually more of a (passive) pyramid scheme.

iaw 9y ago

"Your honor, my client did not defraud the plaintiffs with a financial crime. It was a parody financial crime but the plaintiff mistook the parody for sarcasm and genuinely bought the parody product. This case should be dismissed based on the parody financial crimes precedent set by Virginia v. Horwitz Brothers"

ubernostrum 9y ago
"Your Honor, my client never intended for the plaintiffs to cash the souvenir checks he issued." (it may be I spend too much of my non-tech-internet time reading /r/legaladvice)
stale2002 9y ago
Funnily, though, you used the word defraud. How can you commit fraud if you are telling the truth?

dsacco 9y ago

Performance art does not preclude prosecution for a crime.

stcredzero 9y ago
Here's a prank performance art piece that accidentally turned into a legitimate business: https://www.joeyskaggs.com/works/bad-guys-talent-management-agency/ https://www.joeyskaggs.com/works/bad-guys-talent-management-...
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I wouldn't call it a prank performance art piece. More like an attempt to help a friend break into show business that was unexpectedly successful.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    I thought that Joey Skaggs regarded his body of work as pranks and performance art pieces.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      I wouldn't know. I only know what this one article says. Suffice it to say, I wish my life were more like that. I am envious of his unexpected success.

superasn 9y ago

Not to mention the author also seems to work at Stripe (a financial institution). I hope they would have a good enough sense of humor to take it as a joke only.

stcredzero 9y ago

Any lawyers want to weigh in on whether you have some sort of first-amendment right to parody crimes? "I'm gonna make this pencil disappear."

michaelbuckbee 9y ago

(Also not a lawyer) But, I've wondered about this with various other cryptocurrencies + ICOs. They all seem have TOS clauses that give them very generous outs and that are often in direct conflict with their marketing messages.

everdev 9y ago

I called the SEC last year and selling a coin claiming it'll go up in value without registering as a security is illegal, even if it's a joke. Even if you don't say it'll go up in value but people believe it will, it's illegal. I'm sure there are legal implications of running a Ponzi scheme too. I'm positive that telling someone about the illegal thing you're doing does not absolve you of responsibility.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> I'm sure there are legal implications of running a Ponzi scheme too. I'm positive that telling someone about the illegal thing you're doing does not absolve you of responsibility. In the specific case of a Ponzi scheme, which by definition is a scam where “investors” are decieved as to the nature of the operation, disclosing the mechanics make it not a Ponzi. It does seem to still be an illegal pyramid scheme, though it doesn't rely on an entrants recruiting their own downline, instead having a shared downline.
- everdev 9y ago
  Good catch, I guess it's theoretically impossible to announce a Ponzi scheme then. Queue someone launching PyramidCoin.

unstatusthequo 9y ago

Yeah I'm a lawyer and we represent ICOs and have defended various blockchain crypto clients in admin actions and SEC problem. Looks like I'll have a new client soon!

thrillgore 9y ago

"Your honor, he did do this, but ironically." "Well i'm settled. Case dismissed!"