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I wasn't asking rhetorically and I am, in fact, a proud Muslim myself. I appreciate that you used the word 'culture' before your argument but it's still wrong

by kloncks 16y ago

I wasn't asking rhetorically and I am, in fact, a proud Muslim myself. I appreciate that you used the word 'culture' before your argument but it's still wrong to use the word 'Islam' before 'culture'. It's just culture. Not Islamic culture. Our moral philosophies are not AT ALL incompatible. At it's roots, Islam is eerily reminiscent of its two previous Abrahamic influences (Judaism and Christianity). If the "West" is incompatible with Islam, then by that same logic it's also incompatible with Christianity and Judaism. The practices that you mention are heinous and looked down upon by a lot of people, myself included. The places that practice them are either oppressive regimes or full of ignorance. If you read the texts of Islam (the Qur'an, Hadith, etc), women rights are a huge issue and women are very respected. The problem today is with ignorance, in two ways: 1) Ignorance of people towards Islam. A lot of people have no idea what it is and they're afraid of the mystery. What's worse is that they let a lot (with private agendas) fill in that hazy picture for them. 2) Ignorance of some Muslims themselves that then do many of the problems you're referring to. I think it's no surprise at all that many of the places that breed these problems (whether it's terrorism or sexism) have low literacy rates, high rates of unemployment, horrible schools, no government, etc. In other words, given these same environments, they would be a breeding ground for bad deeds anywhere. So, again, it's a problem with cultural problems. Not with Islam. I'm Egyptian American myself. I'd invite you to take a look at some of the more modern Arab or Muslim countries. Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, some of the Gulf states. If I were to respond to your arguments with an example, it would be my homeland, Egypt, whose population is 85-90% Muslim. We have isolated pockets of such problems, often in some of the poorer rural areas, but for the most part you'll find beaches, tv channels, movies, literature that's as progressive as anywhere else.

deleted 16y ago
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lionhearted 16y ago
> I wasn't asking rhetorically and I am, in fact, a proud Muslim myself. I appreciate that you used the word 'culture' before your argument but it's still wrong to use the word 'Islam' before 'culture'. It's just culture. Not Islamic culture. Salaam. I'm not sure exactly what to call it, but yes, it is a culture of some places, not necessarily the religion itself. > If the "West" is incompatible with Islam, then by that same logic it's also incompatible with Christianity and Judaism. Indeed, a lot of modern thought positions itself as incompatible with any traditional religion, and there are conflicts between modern thought and traditional religion. > The practices that you mention are heinous and looked down upon by a lot of people, myself included. I don't think that way, myself - a close friend of mine in London is Muslim, and I've eaten at his home. The men eat in the dining room, just men, then they leave and just the women eat. I ate with my friend, his father, and his two brothers. Then the mother and two wives ate. I don't think this heinous. I also don't think a culture where women cover themselves a bit more than people do in the West is heinous. > I'm Egyptian American myself. I'd invite you to take a look at some of the more modern Arab or Muslim countries. I've spent time in Dubai, I'll probably be in Turkey, Morocco, and Egypt in the next 12 months. I think there's conflict between some modern thought and some traditional thought that's near irreconcilable, though I agree that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more in common with each other than they do with modern philosophies that replace traditional religion with social causes. But I fear at this point I'm making friends with neither side of the debate - for what it's worth, I respect Islam quite a lot, particularly the hospitality, charity, and sense of duty in Muslims that I've met is rather incredible. Though, some Muslim practices are at perhaps irreconcilable odds with some modern philosophies that seek to replace religion in society. But perhaps not - in any event, I wish you well, and thank you for the discussion.
- kloncks 16y ago
  Thanks for the good discussion as well. It's refreshing to have a civil thoughtful engaging conversation about such topics, for a change. Thank you Hacker News and thank you lionhearted as well. Two quick things. When I say "heinous" practices, I'm not talking about these simple cultural practices or the veil. I was literally referring to violence extremism. I'll agree with you strongly on the fact that most of the modern thinking you're referring to will be at odds with very traditional religions anywhere. But, all in all, I really do think the two can coexist actually and I think the United States is a great example of that. That's why I love it so much ;)
tkahn6 16y ago
Terror organizations may primarily recruit from impoverished Muslim societies but they don't always. I have not researched this with any rigour, but there do seem to be quite a few Muslims from wealthy Western nations that have joined terrorist organizations. What draws these Muslims? This is a genuine question and not rhetorical.
- MaysonL 16y ago
  Well, if you look at western terrorist organizations (e.g. Weather Underground, Red Army Faction, Baader-Meinhof) they recruited many members from wealthy Western nations, very few if any being Mualims. People everywhere (especially young people) are often susceptible to recruitment by charismatic leaders with extremist rhetoric. This is especially true when there is highly visible injustice to be exploited.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  Well, the US government started a war for no reason in Iraq that exterminated a million people. Don't you think bringing about the deaths of a million Muslims for no apparent reason might enrage some people? How many of your friends and family would I have to brutally murder before you said "screw it, I'm going to devote my life to revenge or maybe to just stopping you from killing more people"?
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    From where are you getting your data? AFAIK sectarian violence has killed many, many more Muslims than the US. And terrorist organizations existed before the US invaded Iraq. EDIT: I gather from your comment that you believe terrorism committed against Western civilians is a reasonable response to the way the US has handled the war in Iraq. Correct?
    - MichaelSalib 16y ago
      From where are you getting your data? Excess mortality figures derived from several published cluster sampling studies and then extrapolated to cover the period of greatest violence. AFAIK sectarian violence has killed many, many more Muslims than the US. Please read my comment carefully. I said the US government started a war that killed a million Iraqis. The sectarian violence of which you speak was not a significant issue before the war. And terrorist organizations existed before the US invaded Iraq. Very true. But it seems that various western countries have done other things to kill and maim large numbers of Arabs and Muslims before the war. For example, Mohamed Atta appears to have become radicalized by watching Israeli attacks against Lebanese civilians. I gather from your comment that you believe terrorism committed against Western civilians is a reasonable response to the way the US has handled the war in Iraq. Correct? No, that is incorrect. I think attacking random people associated with the government that killed your family is morally wrong. But I also think it is a very understandable response, one that almost anyone here might engage in. Because that's how human beings operate. I marvel at your inability to distinguish between normative and positive statements. You never answered my question though: how many of your friends and family would I have to kill before you turned to violent revenge?
jacoblyles 16y ago
People perceive an incompatibility between Islam and the West, not because of points of doctrine, but because Islamic countries still condone barbaric practices such as death by stoning for the crime of adultery. Wikipedia says it is not common, but the optics are very bad. Even in Western countries a woman I know who had an Islamic father had to go into hiding after her male relatives beat her severely for dating a non-Muslim boy. In other words, it is the practices of the Muslim community, not their doctrine, that makes it look alien to the West.

by kloncks 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

lionhearted 16y ago

> I wasn't asking rhetorically and I am, in fact, a proud Muslim myself. I appreciate that you used the word 'culture' before your argument but it's still wrong to use the word 'Islam' before 'culture'. It's just culture. Not Islamic culture. Salaam. I'm not sure exactly what to call it, but yes, it is a culture of some places, not necessarily the religion itself. > If the "West" is incompatible with Islam, then by that same logic it's also incompatible with Christianity and Judaism. Indeed, a lot of modern thought positions itself as incompatible with any traditional religion, and there are conflicts between modern thought and traditional religion. > The practices that you mention are heinous and looked down upon by a lot of people, myself included. I don't think that way, myself - a close friend of mine in London is Muslim, and I've eaten at his home. The men eat in the dining room, just men, then they leave and just the women eat. I ate with my friend, his father, and his two brothers. Then the mother and two wives ate. I don't think this heinous. I also don't think a culture where women cover themselves a bit more than people do in the West is heinous. > I'm Egyptian American myself. I'd invite you to take a look at some of the more modern Arab or Muslim countries. I've spent time in Dubai, I'll probably be in Turkey, Morocco, and Egypt in the next 12 months. I think there's conflict between some modern thought and some traditional thought that's near irreconcilable, though I agree that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more in common with each other than they do with modern philosophies that replace traditional religion with social causes. But I fear at this point I'm making friends with neither side of the debate - for what it's worth, I respect Islam quite a lot, particularly the hospitality, charity, and sense of duty in Muslims that I've met is rather incredible. Though, some Muslim practices are at perhaps irreconcilable odds with some modern philosophies that seek to replace religion in society. But perhaps not - in any event, I wish you well, and thank you for the discussion.

kloncks 16y ago
Thanks for the good discussion as well. It's refreshing to have a civil thoughtful engaging conversation about such topics, for a change. Thank you Hacker News and thank you lionhearted as well. Two quick things. When I say "heinous" practices, I'm not talking about these simple cultural practices or the veil. I was literally referring to violence extremism. I'll agree with you strongly on the fact that most of the modern thinking you're referring to will be at odds with very traditional religions anywhere. But, all in all, I really do think the two can coexist actually and I think the United States is a great example of that. That's why I love it so much ;)

tkahn6 16y ago

Terror organizations may primarily recruit from impoverished Muslim societies but they don't always. I have not researched this with any rigour, but there do seem to be quite a few Muslims from wealthy Western nations that have joined terrorist organizations. What draws these Muslims? This is a genuine question and not rhetorical.

MaysonL 16y ago
Well, if you look at western terrorist organizations (e.g. Weather Underground, Red Army Faction, Baader-Meinhof) they recruited many members from wealthy Western nations, very few if any being Mualims. People everywhere (especially young people) are often susceptible to recruitment by charismatic leaders with extremist rhetoric. This is especially true when there is highly visible injustice to be exploited.
MichaelSalib 16y ago
Well, the US government started a war for no reason in Iraq that exterminated a million people. Don't you think bringing about the deaths of a million Muslims for no apparent reason might enrage some people? How many of your friends and family would I have to brutally murder before you said "screw it, I'm going to devote my life to revenge or maybe to just stopping you from killing more people"?
- tkahn6 16y ago
  From where are you getting your data? AFAIK sectarian violence has killed many, many more Muslims than the US. And terrorist organizations existed before the US invaded Iraq. EDIT: I gather from your comment that you believe terrorism committed against Western civilians is a reasonable response to the way the US has handled the war in Iraq. Correct?
  - MichaelSalib 16y ago
    From where are you getting your data? Excess mortality figures derived from several published cluster sampling studies and then extrapolated to cover the period of greatest violence. AFAIK sectarian violence has killed many, many more Muslims than the US. Please read my comment carefully. I said the US government started a war that killed a million Iraqis. The sectarian violence of which you speak was not a significant issue before the war. And terrorist organizations existed before the US invaded Iraq. Very true. But it seems that various western countries have done other things to kill and maim large numbers of Arabs and Muslims before the war. For example, Mohamed Atta appears to have become radicalized by watching Israeli attacks against Lebanese civilians. I gather from your comment that you believe terrorism committed against Western civilians is a reasonable response to the way the US has handled the war in Iraq. Correct? No, that is incorrect. I think attacking random people associated with the government that killed your family is morally wrong. But I also think it is a very understandable response, one that almost anyone here might engage in. Because that's how human beings operate. I marvel at your inability to distinguish between normative and positive statements. You never answered my question though: how many of your friends and family would I have to kill before you turned to violent revenge?

jacoblyles 16y ago

People perceive an incompatibility between Islam and the West, not because of points of doctrine, but because Islamic countries still condone barbaric practices such as death by stoning for the crime of adultery. Wikipedia says it is not common, but the optics are very bad. Even in Western countries a woman I know who had an Islamic father had to go into hiding after her male relatives beat her severely for dating a non-Muslim boy. In other words, it is the practices of the Muslim community, not their doctrine, that makes it look alien to the West.