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Milton's depiction of Satan is really against the established western tradition in many ways... For instance, in Homer's The Odyssey, someone as great as Achil

Milton's depiction of Satan is really against the established western tradition in many ways... For instance, in Homer's The Odyssey, someone as great as Achilles would say, By god, I’d rather slave on earth for another man some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive than rule down here over all the breathless dead. But in a similar situation in Paradise Lost, Satan says, we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: Here we may reign secure, and in my choice to reign is worth ambition though in Hell: Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven. If resolution, perseverance and a heart for liberty are some of the most herioc characters desired in our human world, then in that, Milton's Satan is even more heroic than Achilles... [update: edited the line form for Milton's poem]

michel__ 9y ago
The problem with Milton's Paradise Lost is that it's misinterpreted the way you're currently misinterpreting it. Milton didn't seek to characterize a Satan that is worthy of our admiration. Indeed, there's an innate Libertarian core that resides within us all but Milton sought to, like GRRM in the Games of Throne books, expose how morally bankrupt some of us are for admiring an individual such as Satan merely because of his desire to be 'free'. We thus conveniently forget all of the evil that Satan commits because we see something in him that resides within us: an innate desire to, as Rousseau refers to extensively, to be freed of the shackles of tyranny from above.
- 68c12c16 9y ago
  Thanks for helping me to better get that message. I agree and that's what I have always been feeling a bit puzzled about, as in 17th century England, religious correctness is still not a trivial thing. But in a certain sense, Satan is not absolutely evil and not having no good characters at all. For instance, as the example mentioned in the article, Satan is quite empathetic towards his fellow fallen angels -- and this empathy, would often invoke reader's empathy to a certain extent. So perhaps Milton hopes to create a Satan that has some subtle and mixed characters, with depth, with a spectrum of shades. I feel this method is similarly employed in many Shakespeare's plays (such as Angelo in Measure for Measure), which were written even earlier than Paradise Lost.
  - mrec 9y ago
    Interesting comparison. Angelo's defining characteristic is his hypocrisy, which at times is really vile, but his fall does at least humanize him to the audience by contrast to his earlier presentation as an ice-blooded robot "begot between two stock-fishes". And there's a lot of that in Milton's Satan too. He's undeniably colourful, but seriously, complaining to his companions how crappy it is to reigned over while at the same time declaring his own ambition to reign over them? That doesn't strike me as a libertarian sentiment, more of a narcissistic rational-egoist one.
    - 68c12c16 9y ago
      I feel another place in Measure for Measure that also indicates the depth and the subtlety of Angelo's character is that his monologue in Act II Scene IV, When I would pray and think, I think and pray To several subjects. Heaven hath my empty words; Whilst my invention, hearing not my tongue, Anchors on Isabel: Heaven in my mouth, As if I did but only chew his name; And in my heart the strong and swelling evil Of my conception. The state, whereon I studied Is like a good thing, being often read, Grown fear'd and tedious; yea, my gravity, Wherein--let no man hear me--I take pride, Could I with boot change for an idle plume, Which the air beats for vain. O place, O form, How often dost thou with thy case, thy habit, Wrench awe from fools and tie the wiser souls To thy false seeming! Blood, thou art blood: Let's write good angel on the devil's horn: 'Tis not the devil's crest. Clearly, Angelo feels a certain conflict in his heart, and he struggles hard with this cognitive dissonance, which shows that he is not utterly evil. And there's a lot of that in Milton's Satan too. He's undeniably colourful, but seriously, complaining to his companions how crappy it is to reigned over while at the same time declaring his own ambition to reign over them. I am not that sure to what extent this reign is over them; and who those "them" are? It might not necessarily mean his fellow fallen angels but those dead souls in hell... And also, he is having a conference with his comrades in Pandæmonium, right? In this sense, his power over his comrades -- if he is superior -- is not absolute, as at least he consults them, unlike that in heaven...
      - mrec 9y ago
- taneq 9y ago
  I'm not super familiar with Christian canon but what specific evil did Satan commit? (Both in Paradise Lost and in the original source material, I mean.) I remember reading a bunch stuff where he's called bad things (deceiver, defiler, whatever) but I'd be curious to know what he actually did that was bad (aside from the initial "refusing to bow to God" incident.)
  - wincy 9y ago
    If I recall he waged war against God with part of the hosts of heaven? Who were then corrupted and cast down to Hell with Satan. It’s been a couple months since I read Paradise Lost though.
    - anentropic 9y ago
      But so what? Where is the evil?
      - taneq 9y ago
        I believe in this context, "evil" means "against God" or "not according to God's will" (though how that's possible when God is defined as omnipotent, I don't understand) and so doesn't align with our own usual moral compass which defines evil as some variant of "hurting people".
      - dagw 9y ago
        The war against God is not the primary source of his 'Evil'. His choice to get revenge on God by corrupting man and getting man cast out of paradise is probably his canonical 'evil' act.
        michel__ 9y ago
        This comment right here is the correct answer and it is my hope that others come across it.
        jessaustin 9y ago
AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
> Milton's depiction of Satan is really against the established western tradition in many ways... Not really, no. Satan was often a staple of medieval plays, and often stole the show, as he usually had the best speeches and the most alluring personality next to the stoic paradigm-of-morality main characters. Look no further than Othello, which predates Paradise Lost by a century. It is steeped in much the same tradition. Iago is by far the most interesting character, and the audience ends up rooting for him, up to a point, usually until his villainy outweighs the limits of your empathy. The purpose there was to demonstrate the lure of evil, how it can seduce you with simultaneous appeals to reason, emotion, and pride.
- 68c12c16 9y ago
  > The purpose there was to demonstrate the lure of evil, > how it can seduce you with simultaneous appeals to > reason, emotion, and pride. Yes, you raised a very good point; and I agree. This internal struggle reminds me of the balancing role of ego over the conflict between id and super-ego in Freud's theory. But the reason why I feel Satan is a little against western tradition is that -- I might understand it in a wrong way -- Satan is supposed to be everything that is opposite to God, who is the perfection and absolute virtue. In other words, Satan is utterly and absolutely bad...In this sense, Satan is different than Iago, as Iago is human after all...For instance, this absolute evilness of demon could somewhat be observed in this poem by Pushkin, By gates of Eden, Angel, gentle, Shone with his softly drooped head, And Demon, gloomy and resentful Over the hellish crevasse flapped. The spirit of qualm and negation Looked at another one – of good, And fire of the forced elation First time he vaguely understood. “I’ve seen you,” he enunciated, – “And not in vain you’ve sent me light: Not all in heaven I have hated, Not all in world I have despised.” Notice the "first time" and "negation" stated above... But Milton's characterization of Satan with a certain heroic and empathetic element shows that there is still some benign side for him, which if that is opposite to a corresponding aspect of God, then what God would be?
  - AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
    > Satan is different than Iago, as Iago is human after all... While technically correct, I would invite you to consider this exchange from the ending of Othello. OTHELLO I look down towards his feet; but that's a fable. If that thou best a devil, I cannot kill thee. (Wounds IAGO) [...] IAGO I bleed, sir; but not kill'd. Seemed to me like Iago was pretty clearly saying that he is the devil. Now that might be a little egotistical on his behalf, but the greater point, that an inherent evil lurks in man that can rival any devil, is understood. Or, in tying back to what I imagine was Milton's message as well, that Satan (and, by extension, Evil) is not necessarily going to be the cartoonish, trident-wielding, goat-footed demon we expect.
justin66 9y ago
The great Isaac Asimov said we ought to regard Satan as the protagonist in that story, although I don't recall if he suggested that is what Milton intended. I haven't read Asimov's annotated Paradise Lost, which is out of print and very hard to find.

michel__ 9y ago

The problem with Milton's Paradise Lost is that it's misinterpreted the way you're currently misinterpreting it. Milton didn't seek to characterize a Satan that is worthy of our admiration. Indeed, there's an innate Libertarian core that resides within us all but Milton sought to, like GRRM in the Games of Throne books, expose how morally bankrupt some of us are for admiring an individual such as Satan merely because of his desire to be 'free'. We thus conveniently forget all of the evil that Satan commits because we see something in him that resides within us: an innate desire to, as Rousseau refers to extensively, to be freed of the shackles of tyranny from above.

68c12c16 9y ago
Thanks for helping me to better get that message. I agree and that's what I have always been feeling a bit puzzled about, as in 17th century England, religious correctness is still not a trivial thing. But in a certain sense, Satan is not absolutely evil and not having no good characters at all. For instance, as the example mentioned in the article, Satan is quite empathetic towards his fellow fallen angels -- and this empathy, would often invoke reader's empathy to a certain extent. So perhaps Milton hopes to create a Satan that has some subtle and mixed characters, with depth, with a spectrum of shades. I feel this method is similarly employed in many Shakespeare's plays (such as Angelo in Measure for Measure), which were written even earlier than Paradise Lost.
- mrec 9y ago
  Interesting comparison. Angelo's defining characteristic is his hypocrisy, which at times is really vile, but his fall does at least humanize him to the audience by contrast to his earlier presentation as an ice-blooded robot "begot between two stock-fishes". And there's a lot of that in Milton's Satan too. He's undeniably colourful, but seriously, complaining to his companions how crappy it is to reigned over while at the same time declaring his own ambition to reign over them? That doesn't strike me as a libertarian sentiment, more of a narcissistic rational-egoist one.
  - 68c12c16 9y ago
    I feel another place in Measure for Measure that also indicates the depth and the subtlety of Angelo's character is that his monologue in Act II Scene IV, When I would pray and think, I think and pray To several subjects. Heaven hath my empty words; Whilst my invention, hearing not my tongue, Anchors on Isabel: Heaven in my mouth, As if I did but only chew his name; And in my heart the strong and swelling evil Of my conception. The state, whereon I studied Is like a good thing, being often read, Grown fear'd and tedious; yea, my gravity, Wherein--let no man hear me--I take pride, Could I with boot change for an idle plume, Which the air beats for vain. O place, O form, How often dost thou with thy case, thy habit, Wrench awe from fools and tie the wiser souls To thy false seeming! Blood, thou art blood: Let's write good angel on the devil's horn: 'Tis not the devil's crest. Clearly, Angelo feels a certain conflict in his heart, and he struggles hard with this cognitive dissonance, which shows that he is not utterly evil. And there's a lot of that in Milton's Satan too. He's undeniably colourful, but seriously, complaining to his companions how crappy it is to reigned over while at the same time declaring his own ambition to reign over them. I am not that sure to what extent this reign is over them; and who those "them" are? It might not necessarily mean his fellow fallen angels but those dead souls in hell... And also, he is having a conference with his comrades in Pandæmonium, right? In this sense, his power over his comrades -- if he is superior -- is not absolute, as at least he consults them, unlike that in heaven...
    - mrec 9y ago
taneq 9y ago
I'm not super familiar with Christian canon but what specific evil did Satan commit? (Both in Paradise Lost and in the original source material, I mean.) I remember reading a bunch stuff where he's called bad things (deceiver, defiler, whatever) but I'd be curious to know what he actually did that was bad (aside from the initial "refusing to bow to God" incident.)
- wincy 9y ago
  If I recall he waged war against God with part of the hosts of heaven? Who were then corrupted and cast down to Hell with Satan. It’s been a couple months since I read Paradise Lost though.
  - anentropic 9y ago
    But so what? Where is the evil?
    - taneq 9y ago
      I believe in this context, "evil" means "against God" or "not according to God's will" (though how that's possible when God is defined as omnipotent, I don't understand) and so doesn't align with our own usual moral compass which defines evil as some variant of "hurting people".
    - dagw 9y ago
      The war against God is not the primary source of his 'Evil'. His choice to get revenge on God by corrupting man and getting man cast out of paradise is probably his canonical 'evil' act.
      - michel__ 9y ago
        This comment right here is the correct answer and it is my hope that others come across it.
      - jessaustin 9y ago

AdmiralAsshat 9y ago

> Milton's depiction of Satan is really against the established western tradition in many ways... Not really, no. Satan was often a staple of medieval plays, and often stole the show, as he usually had the best speeches and the most alluring personality next to the stoic paradigm-of-morality main characters. Look no further than Othello, which predates Paradise Lost by a century. It is steeped in much the same tradition. Iago is by far the most interesting character, and the audience ends up rooting for him, up to a point, usually until his villainy outweighs the limits of your empathy. The purpose there was to demonstrate the lure of evil, how it can seduce you with simultaneous appeals to reason, emotion, and pride.

68c12c16 9y ago
> The purpose there was to demonstrate the lure of evil, > how it can seduce you with simultaneous appeals to > reason, emotion, and pride. Yes, you raised a very good point; and I agree. This internal struggle reminds me of the balancing role of ego over the conflict between id and super-ego in Freud's theory. But the reason why I feel Satan is a little against western tradition is that -- I might understand it in a wrong way -- Satan is supposed to be everything that is opposite to God, who is the perfection and absolute virtue. In other words, Satan is utterly and absolutely bad...In this sense, Satan is different than Iago, as Iago is human after all...For instance, this absolute evilness of demon could somewhat be observed in this poem by Pushkin, By gates of Eden, Angel, gentle, Shone with his softly drooped head, And Demon, gloomy and resentful Over the hellish crevasse flapped. The spirit of qualm and negation Looked at another one – of good, And fire of the forced elation First time he vaguely understood. “I’ve seen you,” he enunciated, – “And not in vain you’ve sent me light: Not all in heaven I have hated, Not all in world I have despised.” Notice the "first time" and "negation" stated above... But Milton's characterization of Satan with a certain heroic and empathetic element shows that there is still some benign side for him, which if that is opposite to a corresponding aspect of God, then what God would be?
- AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
  > Satan is different than Iago, as Iago is human after all... While technically correct, I would invite you to consider this exchange from the ending of Othello. OTHELLO I look down towards his feet; but that's a fable. If that thou best a devil, I cannot kill thee. (Wounds IAGO) [...] IAGO I bleed, sir; but not kill'd. Seemed to me like Iago was pretty clearly saying that he is the devil. Now that might be a little egotistical on his behalf, but the greater point, that an inherent evil lurks in man that can rival any devil, is understood. Or, in tying back to what I imagine was Milton's message as well, that Satan (and, by extension, Evil) is not necessarily going to be the cartoonish, trident-wielding, goat-footed demon we expect.

justin66 9y ago

The great Isaac Asimov said we ought to regard Satan as the protagonist in that story, although I don't recall if he suggested that is what Milton intended. I haven't read Asimov's annotated Paradise Lost, which is out of print and very hard to find.