7 ms·

I didn't know this and it was very interesting. But, honestly, not all that surprising. The beauty of this country is that it's a melting pot of cultures, reli

by kloncks 16y ago

I didn't know this and it was very interesting. But, honestly, not all that surprising. The beauty of this country is that it's a melting pot of cultures, religions, ideas, colors, and ethnic classes. It's what makes us both different and great. So, of course, Islam, like every other culture introduced us to some beautiful new ideas. At the end of the day, we're a better more diverse nation because of said influence along with influences from every other group. Which is why recent events pain me so much. Why can't we just all get along?

lionhearted 16y ago
> Which is why recent events pain me so much. Why can't we just all get along? I know you're asking rhetorically, but the answer is that there's moral philosophies that are incompatible with each other. An example: Islamic culture typically believes that women's sexuality can be a destructive and corroding force for herself, her family, and society if not muted and regulated. Progressive multiculturalism believes that any muting or regulating of a person's sexuality is oppressive and wrong. Thus progressive multiculturalism believes Islamic culture is oppressive and wrong, whereas Islamic culture believes progressive multiculturalism is destructive and corrosive for society and the individuals in society. The reason we can't all get along is because cultures have violently opposed moral philosophies. Western progressivism wants to liberate and break what they perceive as Islamic oppression. Being that leaders in Muslim society generally have less access to fight back in an information war (since they have less access to media and universities), they fight back in other, more base and primitive ways. Note that this isn't a moral judgment on either side, just an explanation of why we aren't all getting along.
- Qz 16y ago
  That's really a bad example to choose. There's a huge portion of America that would completely disagree with the idea that "any muting or regulating of a person's sexuality is oppressive and wrong". Western progressivism wants to liberate and break what they perceive as Islamic oppression. This is a gross oversimplification of the conflict, to the point of being false and misleading. "West" vs "Islam" had very little to do with 'freedom' vs 'oppression' and if you ask people in islamic countries why they oppose the west, you'll find that many if not most of them consider the West to be the oppressors.
  - lionhearted 16y ago
    > That's really a bad example to choose. There's a huge portion of America that would completely disagree with the idea that "any muting or regulating of a person's sexuality is oppressive and wrong". Right, that's why I said "Western progressives," as opposed to other people who live in the Western world who aren't progressive. > This is a gross oversimplification of the conflict It wasn't a description of the entire conflict, just one aspect of why people don't get along. > if you ask people in islamic countries why they oppose the west, you'll find that many if not most of them consider the West to be the oppressors. The vast majority of Muslims who oppose the West do believe that Western society is destructive/corrosive to traditional Muslim values. There's other things too - in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, the borders of the new Middle Eastern states were drawn without paying attention to traditional loyalties. That's why modern day Iraq is mixed Kurd, Sunni, and Shia. More goes into than what I wrote down - it's just one illustrative aspect of why there's conflict between two groups - Western progressives and traditional Muslims - that won't get along. That's not the whole story, but it is a true story.
    - kloncks 16y ago
      I think his point was that Western progressives don't even get along with all of the population of the West, let alone "traditional Muslims". In this country, we're divided along such an issue and we have HUGE areas/pockets that no one could dare describe as "progressive".
- blahedo 16y ago
  I see that you were careful to say "Islamic culture" rather than "Islam", but I'd highlight the distinction even further and say "some of the cultures often associated with Islam". To my understanding, most of the female-hostile ideas and policies are cultural rather than religious. Much as the female-hostile ideas and policies prevalent in Christendom[1] until quite recently (and still present!) were not at their core religious, though often justified in religious terms. [1] Such a quaint term, but it's really the right one here, I think.
  - MaysonL 16y ago
    Note, for example, this matrilineal Islamic culture: http://www.roamingtales.com/2009/10/21/a-matrilineal-islamic-society-in-sumatra/ http://www.roamingtales.com/2009/10/21/a-matrilineal-islamic...
- CamperBob 16y ago
  Actually one major aspect of the doctrine called 'multiculturalism' would hold that the sexism built into Islamic culture is legitimate and equal in merit to beliefs and practices in any other culture. That's why multiculturalism as an ideology is pretty goofy. It actively denies the validity of value judgment with respect to culture.
  - avdempsey 16y ago
    Or it's not that goofy, and you see greater value in seeing a world at peace than imposing your parochial judgment on someone else. Man, we fought a war over skapegoatism; wise up!
    - endtime 16y ago
      How are you seeing a world "at peace" if you stand around smiling at people who e.g. forcibly circumcise their women and murder their own daughters and sisters as a punishment for getting raped?
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - MichaelSalib 16y ago
        I am very curious: what exactly do you think the US should do with countries whose culture you disapprove of? Bomb them? Invade them? Sanction them? Cut off all trade with them? Destabilize their government with covert action? I mean, it seems like you don't consider "standing around and smiling" acceptable, so what alternative do you propose?
        CamperBob 16y ago
        Nobody said it was our responsibility to cure the world's cultural ills. There is a rather large middle ground between refusing to judge another culture and bombing its practitioners, isn't there? Let's try speech first, and see how that works.
- jballanc 16y ago
  * sigh * I really really don't like this sexism argument that keeps coming up. There are 1 billion Muslims on the planet, and this view that "Islamic culture typically believes that women's sexuality can be a destructive" omits large chunks of that population. It's as if someone were to judge Americans base solely on the cultural attitudes of the region from Utah to Nebraska. Hardly representative. Are there elements of the Islamic world that have these attitudes toward women? Without a doubt. But lately the brush being used to paint "Islam" is far, far too wide. What's so wrong with that? Well, for one thing, the U.S. risks pushing away a very strategic military and close economic ally with these sorts of attitudes...
- kloncks 16y ago
  I wasn't asking rhetorically and I am, in fact, a proud Muslim myself. I appreciate that you used the word 'culture' before your argument but it's still wrong to use the word 'Islam' before 'culture'. It's just culture. Not Islamic culture. Our moral philosophies are not AT ALL incompatible. At it's roots, Islam is eerily reminiscent of its two previous Abrahamic influences (Judaism and Christianity). If the "West" is incompatible with Islam, then by that same logic it's also incompatible with Christianity and Judaism. The practices that you mention are heinous and looked down upon by a lot of people, myself included. The places that practice them are either oppressive regimes or full of ignorance. If you read the texts of Islam (the Qur'an, Hadith, etc), women rights are a huge issue and women are very respected. The problem today is with ignorance, in two ways: 1) Ignorance of people towards Islam. A lot of people have no idea what it is and they're afraid of the mystery. What's worse is that they let a lot (with private agendas) fill in that hazy picture for them. 2) Ignorance of some Muslims themselves that then do many of the problems you're referring to. I think it's no surprise at all that many of the places that breed these problems (whether it's terrorism or sexism) have low literacy rates, high rates of unemployment, horrible schools, no government, etc. In other words, given these same environments, they would be a breeding ground for bad deeds anywhere. So, again, it's a problem with cultural problems. Not with Islam. I'm Egyptian American myself. I'd invite you to take a look at some of the more modern Arab or Muslim countries. Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, some of the Gulf states. If I were to respond to your arguments with an example, it would be my homeland, Egypt, whose population is 85-90% Muslim. We have isolated pockets of such problems, often in some of the poorer rural areas, but for the most part you'll find beaches, tv channels, movies, literature that's as progressive as anywhere else.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - lionhearted 16y ago
    > I wasn't asking rhetorically and I am, in fact, a proud Muslim myself. I appreciate that you used the word 'culture' before your argument but it's still wrong to use the word 'Islam' before 'culture'. It's just culture. Not Islamic culture. Salaam. I'm not sure exactly what to call it, but yes, it is a culture of some places, not necessarily the religion itself. > If the "West" is incompatible with Islam, then by that same logic it's also incompatible with Christianity and Judaism. Indeed, a lot of modern thought positions itself as incompatible with any traditional religion, and there are conflicts between modern thought and traditional religion. > The practices that you mention are heinous and looked down upon by a lot of people, myself included. I don't think that way, myself - a close friend of mine in London is Muslim, and I've eaten at his home. The men eat in the dining room, just men, then they leave and just the women eat. I ate with my friend, his father, and his two brothers. Then the mother and two wives ate. I don't think this heinous. I also don't think a culture where women cover themselves a bit more than people do in the West is heinous. > I'm Egyptian American myself. I'd invite you to take a look at some of the more modern Arab or Muslim countries. I've spent time in Dubai, I'll probably be in Turkey, Morocco, and Egypt in the next 12 months. I think there's conflict between some modern thought and some traditional thought that's near irreconcilable, though I agree that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more in common with each other than they do with modern philosophies that replace traditional religion with social causes. But I fear at this point I'm making friends with neither side of the debate - for what it's worth, I respect Islam quite a lot, particularly the hospitality, charity, and sense of duty in Muslims that I've met is rather incredible. Though, some Muslim practices are at perhaps irreconcilable odds with some modern philosophies that seek to replace religion in society. But perhaps not - in any event, I wish you well, and thank you for the discussion.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  Progressive multiculturalism believes that any muting or regulating of a person's sexuality is oppressive and wrong. This is obviously incorrect though. Progressive multiculterists insist on many sexual regulations: they prohibit sex with children for example and they tend to look down on people who cheat on their spouses. Moreover, in the US, hatred of Islam and hatred of Muslims correlates very highly with Christian cultural beliefs that sexuality is a destructive and corroding force that harms individuals, families and society. Surely you have noticed the fact that cosmopolitan urban environments are far more accepting of Muslims than reactionary rural areas where cultural conservatism is far higher?

by kloncks 16y ago

lionhearted 16y ago

> Which is why recent events pain me so much. Why can't we just all get along? I know you're asking rhetorically, but the answer is that there's moral philosophies that are incompatible with each other. An example: Islamic culture typically believes that women's sexuality can be a destructive and corroding force for herself, her family, and society if not muted and regulated. Progressive multiculturalism believes that any muting or regulating of a person's sexuality is oppressive and wrong. Thus progressive multiculturalism believes Islamic culture is oppressive and wrong, whereas Islamic culture believes progressive multiculturalism is destructive and corrosive for society and the individuals in society. The reason we can't all get along is because cultures have violently opposed moral philosophies. Western progressivism wants to liberate and break what they perceive as Islamic oppression. Being that leaders in Muslim society generally have less access to fight back in an information war (since they have less access to media and universities), they fight back in other, more base and primitive ways. Note that this isn't a moral judgment on either side, just an explanation of why we aren't all getting along.

Qz 16y ago
That's really a bad example to choose. There's a huge portion of America that would completely disagree with the idea that "any muting or regulating of a person's sexuality is oppressive and wrong". Western progressivism wants to liberate and break what they perceive as Islamic oppression. This is a gross oversimplification of the conflict, to the point of being false and misleading. "West" vs "Islam" had very little to do with 'freedom' vs 'oppression' and if you ask people in islamic countries why they oppose the west, you'll find that many if not most of them consider the West to be the oppressors.
- lionhearted 16y ago
  > That's really a bad example to choose. There's a huge portion of America that would completely disagree with the idea that "any muting or regulating of a person's sexuality is oppressive and wrong". Right, that's why I said "Western progressives," as opposed to other people who live in the Western world who aren't progressive. > This is a gross oversimplification of the conflict It wasn't a description of the entire conflict, just one aspect of why people don't get along. > if you ask people in islamic countries why they oppose the west, you'll find that many if not most of them consider the West to be the oppressors. The vast majority of Muslims who oppose the West do believe that Western society is destructive/corrosive to traditional Muslim values. There's other things too - in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, the borders of the new Middle Eastern states were drawn without paying attention to traditional loyalties. That's why modern day Iraq is mixed Kurd, Sunni, and Shia. More goes into than what I wrote down - it's just one illustrative aspect of why there's conflict between two groups - Western progressives and traditional Muslims - that won't get along. That's not the whole story, but it is a true story.
  - kloncks 16y ago
    I think his point was that Western progressives don't even get along with all of the population of the West, let alone "traditional Muslims". In this country, we're divided along such an issue and we have HUGE areas/pockets that no one could dare describe as "progressive".
blahedo 16y ago
I see that you were careful to say "Islamic culture" rather than "Islam", but I'd highlight the distinction even further and say "some of the cultures often associated with Islam". To my understanding, most of the female-hostile ideas and policies are cultural rather than religious. Much as the female-hostile ideas and policies prevalent in Christendom[1] until quite recently (and still present!) were not at their core religious, though often justified in religious terms. [1] Such a quaint term, but it's really the right one here, I think.
- MaysonL 16y ago
  Note, for example, this matrilineal Islamic culture: http://www.roamingtales.com/2009/10/21/a-matrilineal-islamic-society-in-sumatra/ http://www.roamingtales.com/2009/10/21/a-matrilineal-islamic...
CamperBob 16y ago
Actually one major aspect of the doctrine called 'multiculturalism' would hold that the sexism built into Islamic culture is legitimate and equal in merit to beliefs and practices in any other culture. That's why multiculturalism as an ideology is pretty goofy. It actively denies the validity of value judgment with respect to culture.
- avdempsey 16y ago
  Or it's not that goofy, and you see greater value in seeing a world at peace than imposing your parochial judgment on someone else. Man, we fought a war over skapegoatism; wise up!
  - endtime 16y ago
    How are you seeing a world "at peace" if you stand around smiling at people who e.g. forcibly circumcise their women and murder their own daughters and sisters as a punishment for getting raped?
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - MichaelSalib 16y ago
      I am very curious: what exactly do you think the US should do with countries whose culture you disapprove of? Bomb them? Invade them? Sanction them? Cut off all trade with them? Destabilize their government with covert action? I mean, it seems like you don't consider "standing around and smiling" acceptable, so what alternative do you propose?
      - CamperBob 16y ago
        Nobody said it was our responsibility to cure the world's cultural ills. There is a rather large middle ground between refusing to judge another culture and bombing its practitioners, isn't there? Let's try speech first, and see how that works.
jballanc 16y ago
* sigh * I really really don't like this sexism argument that keeps coming up. There are 1 billion Muslims on the planet, and this view that "Islamic culture typically believes that women's sexuality can be a destructive" omits large chunks of that population. It's as if someone were to judge Americans base solely on the cultural attitudes of the region from Utah to Nebraska. Hardly representative. Are there elements of the Islamic world that have these attitudes toward women? Without a doubt. But lately the brush being used to paint "Islam" is far, far too wide. What's so wrong with that? Well, for one thing, the U.S. risks pushing away a very strategic military and close economic ally with these sorts of attitudes...
kloncks 16y ago
I wasn't asking rhetorically and I am, in fact, a proud Muslim myself. I appreciate that you used the word 'culture' before your argument but it's still wrong to use the word 'Islam' before 'culture'. It's just culture. Not Islamic culture. Our moral philosophies are not AT ALL incompatible. At it's roots, Islam is eerily reminiscent of its two previous Abrahamic influences (Judaism and Christianity). If the "West" is incompatible with Islam, then by that same logic it's also incompatible with Christianity and Judaism. The practices that you mention are heinous and looked down upon by a lot of people, myself included. The places that practice them are either oppressive regimes or full of ignorance. If you read the texts of Islam (the Qur'an, Hadith, etc), women rights are a huge issue and women are very respected. The problem today is with ignorance, in two ways: 1) Ignorance of people towards Islam. A lot of people have no idea what it is and they're afraid of the mystery. What's worse is that they let a lot (with private agendas) fill in that hazy picture for them. 2) Ignorance of some Muslims themselves that then do many of the problems you're referring to. I think it's no surprise at all that many of the places that breed these problems (whether it's terrorism or sexism) have low literacy rates, high rates of unemployment, horrible schools, no government, etc. In other words, given these same environments, they would be a breeding ground for bad deeds anywhere. So, again, it's a problem with cultural problems. Not with Islam. I'm Egyptian American myself. I'd invite you to take a look at some of the more modern Arab or Muslim countries. Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, some of the Gulf states. If I were to respond to your arguments with an example, it would be my homeland, Egypt, whose population is 85-90% Muslim. We have isolated pockets of such problems, often in some of the poorer rural areas, but for the most part you'll find beaches, tv channels, movies, literature that's as progressive as anywhere else.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- lionhearted 16y ago
  > I wasn't asking rhetorically and I am, in fact, a proud Muslim myself. I appreciate that you used the word 'culture' before your argument but it's still wrong to use the word 'Islam' before 'culture'. It's just culture. Not Islamic culture. Salaam. I'm not sure exactly what to call it, but yes, it is a culture of some places, not necessarily the religion itself. > If the "West" is incompatible with Islam, then by that same logic it's also incompatible with Christianity and Judaism. Indeed, a lot of modern thought positions itself as incompatible with any traditional religion, and there are conflicts between modern thought and traditional religion. > The practices that you mention are heinous and looked down upon by a lot of people, myself included. I don't think that way, myself - a close friend of mine in London is Muslim, and I've eaten at his home. The men eat in the dining room, just men, then they leave and just the women eat. I ate with my friend, his father, and his two brothers. Then the mother and two wives ate. I don't think this heinous. I also don't think a culture where women cover themselves a bit more than people do in the West is heinous. > I'm Egyptian American myself. I'd invite you to take a look at some of the more modern Arab or Muslim countries. I've spent time in Dubai, I'll probably be in Turkey, Morocco, and Egypt in the next 12 months. I think there's conflict between some modern thought and some traditional thought that's near irreconcilable, though I agree that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more in common with each other than they do with modern philosophies that replace traditional religion with social causes. But I fear at this point I'm making friends with neither side of the debate - for what it's worth, I respect Islam quite a lot, particularly the hospitality, charity, and sense of duty in Muslims that I've met is rather incredible. Though, some Muslim practices are at perhaps irreconcilable odds with some modern philosophies that seek to replace religion in society. But perhaps not - in any event, I wish you well, and thank you for the discussion.
MichaelSalib 16y ago
Progressive multiculturalism believes that any muting or regulating of a person's sexuality is oppressive and wrong. This is obviously incorrect though. Progressive multiculterists insist on many sexual regulations: they prohibit sex with children for example and they tend to look down on people who cheat on their spouses. Moreover, in the US, hatred of Islam and hatred of Muslims correlates very highly with Christian cultural beliefs that sexuality is a destructive and corroding force that harms individuals, families and society. Surely you have noticed the fact that cosmopolitan urban environments are far more accepting of Muslims than reactionary rural areas where cultural conservatism is far higher?