10 ms·
Make sure to read the article, not just the title. They're not being fined because they're dominant, they're fined for anti-competitive behavior (aka bribe). >
by nolok 9y ago
Make sure to read the article, not just the title. They're not being fined because they're dominant, they're fined for anti-competitive behavior (aka bribe).
> Qualcomm [the market leader at the time of events] illegally shut out rivals from the market for LTE baseband chipsets for over five years [...] Qualcomm paid billions of US Dollars to a key customer, Apple, so that it would not buy from rivals. These payments were not just reductions in price — they were made on the condition that Apple would exclusively use Qualcomm’s baseband chipsets in all its iPhones and iPads. [...] This is illegal under EU antitrust rules and why we have taken today’s decision.”
- maaark 9y agoThe old Intel-Dell arrangement. Here's some cash to shun our rivals.
- Cthulhu_ 9y agoWas that cash or a discount? Where do you draw the line?
- OscarCunningham 9y agoThe problem is more the "to shun our rivals" bit.
- fastball 9y agoRight, but if I give a hefty discount to one of my buyers, presumably they'll shun my rivals in exchange for the hefty discount. If that's ok, what's preventing me from locking in the quid pro quo with a 5 year deal?
- namelost 9y ago"Rivals" is just it. The whole point of competition law is to restrict actions which would be legal in a competitive environment but become illegal when a company has a monopoly.
- Slartie 9y agoThe point is: the price is not the only factor that matters in a buying decision. Even if you give hefty discounts, thus are the cheapest source for the parts, the buyer might want to source a percentage of parts from another supplier which might be more expensive, but in return the buyer gets some independence from you - like if you can't deliver on an order, the buyer may be able to shift more orders to the other source relatively quickly. And of course the buyer will be in a much better position regarding future price negotiations with you if he already sources the part from two suppliers and thus can potentially increase orders from the alternative source easily (which usually entices them to give the buyer a bigger discount as well) without encountering large additional switching risks. Apple in particular always tries to have multiple sources for any parts they don't develop themselves. And even for the stuff they develop, they try to have multiple manufacturers. This is a very good idea to do at their scale. Them legally preventing from doing this by forbidding it in a contract is way different than "preventing" them from doing this by just offering them chips at super-cheap prices and hoping for them to take up your offering and to ignore all the other competing offers.
- chris_wot 9y agoIt works out well for Apple, to be honest. The contact parts that them lock-in in to only one vendor just got nullified. They can now source parts from other vendors if they do choose - something tells me the ramifications of this for Qualcomm are worse than just st the fine... Apple can now do some hard nosed negotiating to reduce the price they pay for Qualcomm goods.
- Slartie 9y agoI am pretty sure that the Apple lawyers were absolutely expecting this outcome, which is probably the reason why they signed such a contract. The risk was mostly on Qualcomm's side, as they were the ones writing the shady contract, while Apple would benefit from cheap components, which is a safe benefit that they would not lose in case the shady parts of the contract would come to light and provoke law enforcement to step in. Most likely they didn't yet plan to source the LTE chips from a second supplier at the time they signed the contract, so that limit didn't affect them. Nowadays they do have multiple sources, which is probably why they did not prolong the contract any further after 2016 - because having multiple sources was worth more to them than having this discount.
- mtgx 9y agoYes, that would be okay, as long as you don't make it part of the contract that "they can't buy from anyone else". You can offer a -50% discount to customers (as long as you aren't selling below cost, which would also be illegal in the EU), and then you'd have to assume that the customer will stick with you as long as you offer that discount, or develop a good relationship, and so on. But you can't enforce that the customer can't also buy the product at 100% of the price or whatever it is from a competitor at the same time it's buying it at -50% from you. If the customer does that, it should be their choice. You can't ban the transactions with your competitors in the deal.
- VMG 9y agoIsn't any competitive offer intended so the customer shuns the rivals?
- mtgx 9y agoYes, but it's not a legal requirement to shun the competitors. You can still purchase at 2x the price if you want to. That's the issue here. Qualcomm banned Apple from purchasing at any cost from competitors, essentially. It was in the deal that there would be significant consequences from purchasing from other competitors.
- VMG 9y agothanks for the clarification
- yndoendo 9y agoCash; history of the Intel actions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osSMJRyxG0k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osSMJRyxG0k
- ams6110 9y agoWhat arrangement? I've been able to get AMD CPUs in Dell servers if I wanted them.
- AsyncAwait 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices,_Inc._v._Intel_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices,_Inc._v.... > In June 4, 2008, Korea Fair Trade Commission fined Intel US$25.4 million for giving Samsung rebates to not use AMD processors. Some of the manufacturers involved in the case were Dell, HP, Gateway, Acer, Fujitsu, Sony, Toshiba, and Hitachi. > In May 2009, the European Commissioner for Competition, Neelie Kroes, fined Intel a record $1.45 billion and ordered it to end its customer rebate program. > In November 2009, Intel agreed to pay AMD $1.25 billion as part of a deal to settle all outstanding legal disputes between the two companies.
- charlesdm 9y agoIsn't this just comparable to any customer doing business with a supplier? If you buy a lot of X, you get a good discount. Given the amount of iPhones in circulation, I'm pretty sure Apple needed a significant amount of LTE chips.
- dingo_bat 9y agoAll fine unless you have a monopoly.
- xxs 9y agoYou'd have to do better than throwing a blanket statement. Do you have any references to quote?
- rowyourboat 9y agoIn European anti-trust law, excluding competitors (or restricting anything regarding third parties) is illegal regardless of your market share. You might come under closer scrutiny if you have a quasi-monopoly, but the behavior is very much not "fine" regardless.
- m_mueller 9y agoDid you read GP’s comment at all? It depends on the strings attached to the discount.
- charlesdm 9y agoI have. I just don't see how it's a bribe. This in part, because if Apple essentially ended up being 80% of the market, I don't see how one business relationship can be seen as monopolising. Part of the reason Apple agreed to such a deal is because having a longer term contract will give them a better per unit price. If you follow that line of thinking and Qualcomm gets a fine because of that, the commission should also force Apple to purchase LTE chips from multiple suppliers, because they can force the price down so much due to the fact they're 80% of the market. It goes both ways.
- pqh 9y agoIf I wanted to understand the differences in how the EU manages big companies versus the US, with points from all sides, where would I start reading?
- nolok 9y agoI'm not sure how to guide you except the FTC's own website on one side, and the European Comission's website in the Competition section ( http://ec.europa.eu/competition/index_en.html http://ec.europa.eu/competition/index_en.html ). The big differences in how things happen lately are not really into how the law is made, but in how (and if) they are applied. My personnal point of view: It took a lot of time for the EU to get out of its shell in that area, but now it's doing a very good job comparatively to the rest of the world, and the fact that we are an agreement or still very different countries ends up being a big advantage here: laws are applied without too much protectionnism or preferentiel treatement. The FTC, on the other hand, seems to me very much more inclined to make sure the USA goes out ahead that to ensure fair market competiton. This is a shoddy deal between two american companies, and what happens is also theoretically not legal by US laws, so why is the EUC dealing with it while the FTC looks away ?
- matt4077 9y agoAn excellent author on US Competition Law is Richard Posner, a federal judge in Chicago and one of the great intellectuals on the bench. He had a blog (together with an economist) at http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/ http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/ (sadly discontinued after his co-author's death in 2014). Posner has literally written the book on the US' Antitrust law, and he is one of the rare writers I enjoy reading even when I vehemently disagree (as I do with his proposal for a largely unregulated market in babies).
- maaaats 9y agoShould Apple also be fined for accepting the bribe? (Curious about legal standing as well as what people here feel)
- hvidgaard 9y agoIn a perfect world, most certainly
- Aaargh20318 9y agoAccording to some other reports, Apple accepting the bribe does not violate any antitrust rules. (Can't find an english-language source for that unfortunately)
- nothrabannosir 9y agoFor the record: which reports? Regardless of language…
- Aaargh20318 9y agoThis one for example: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/134381/eu-legt-qualcomm-boete-op-van-bijna-een-miljard-euro-voor-misbruik-machtspositie.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/134381/eu-legt-qualcomm-boete-op... Quote: “Volgens Vestager treft Apple in dit dossier geen blaam; er zou geen bewijs zijn dat Apple de Europese mededingingsregels heeft overtreden.“ Translation: “According to Vestager Apple is not blamed in this case; there seems to be no evidence Apple violated the European antitrust rules”
- briandear 9y agoBribe is such an incorrect word for this. A discount isn’t a bribe, nor is a rebate. If Tim Cook got extra money in his bank account, then that would be a bribe. This situation isn’t.
- mtgx 9y agoI think it's better to only have one party fined over bribes, because then the other party can report the first one (kind of like it's happening with Apple and Qualcomm now).
- joejerryronnie 9y agoHow is this different from AT&Ts exclusive deal with Apple for the first few years of iPhone sales in the US? Is it due to a difference in the US vs EU anti trust laws?
- mdasen 9y agoThere's nothing illegal about creating exclusive deals or trying to compete in ways that might not be the best for customers, but doesn't rise to the level of anti-trust. That doesn't mean it doesn't seem bad, but there's a difference between kinda plain-old "I wish they'd give me a better deal" and anti-trust. Apple's exclusivity with AT&T didn't create a situation where AT&T could crush competitors. That's ultimately the crux. Qualcomm's dealings had been working to eliminate competition in the LTE modem space until Apple started working with Intel. You couldn't get an iPhone on Verizon, but Verizon was still signing up millions of customers without it. It certainly helped AT&T, but it didn't create a market where competition was eliminated or endangered. As Android phones came along, they were a drop-in substitute that other carriers could use. Sure, you might want an iPhone on Verizon rather than Android phone on Verizon, but that falls into the "I want my perfect deal" rather than something really endangering competition. It's clear Verizon would continue to be a successful company offering competition even without the iPhone. Qualcomm was the only company offering high end modems. Companies might buy modems from Intel or others if they made high-end modems, but Intel isn't going to make a high-end modem if no one is going to buy it. By requiring exclusivity, Qualcomm made it so that there weren't enough customers to support an alternative high-end modem. To come up with a hypothetical iPhone scenario, let's say that Apple launched the iPhone in 2007 on all networks and required AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile to commit that they would only sell iPhones and no competing smartphones. Google might invest in Android, but there'd be no one to buy the devices. Sure, a few people would buy them outside of the carriers, but there wouldn't be enough demand to be profitable, Google would invest less and less (maybe even shut it down) while Apple poured money into iPhone R&D. A few years later, Android would be gone. Apple's exclusivity with AT&T actually helped competition. Verizon wouldn't have promoted Android heavily if they had access to the iPhone. People would have bought iPhones 2007-2008. Instead, they often bought Android devices because they were on Verizon or Sprint or T-Mobile and that's all that was available. Apple's exclusivity helped Android gain a foothold. It wasn't until 2011 that the iPhone launched on Verizon and that 3.5 year period gave Android the time it needed to flourish. Sure, Apple's move wasn't consumer-friendly. However, if anything, it helped competition. Regulators aren't about making sure that everything is the most consumer-friendly. They're about making sure that you aren't stifling competition. Apple's exclusivity didn't harm wireless competition: Verizon was still doing well over that 3.5 year period. Apple's exclusivity, if anything, helped competition in the smartphone OS/device market. As such, there wasn't a problem that needed correcting. If Apple had launched on all the carriers and required them to exclude Android devices from their lineups, that would have driven out competition. Qualcomm is accused of seeking exclusivity to prevent companies like Intel from producing high-end modems. If all the customers have an exclusivity agreement with Qualcomm, no one would buy Intel's modems. If all the networks had exclusivity agreements with Apple, there'd be no one to buy Android phones. Apple's exclusivity is more like the exclusivity of Orange is the New Black on Netflix. Maybe I don't want to pay for Netflix to get one show. Maybe I don't want to join AT&T just to get an iPhone. But as long as there's lots of competition and you can replace Orange is the New Black with The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu, there's robust competition, no one's getting driven out of business, etc. Netflix is gaining customers and Comcast might be losing customers, but that's "fair" - or at least fair enough for regulators to ignore it. Comcast can make better exclusive content on NBC, USA Network, Syfy, and Bravo or license it to regain customers. Verizon did push hard for Android devices like the original Motorola Droid to overcome their lack of iPhone. Again, exclusivity deals might not be great, but anti-trust law concerns itself with companies that are using a dominant, monopolistic position to eliminate competition.