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How about developing EU country with wages 25-35K? Doing project exclusively for German/British/American markets, where one would have to pay developers locally

How about developing EU country with wages 25-35K? Doing project exclusively for German/British/American markets, where one would have to pay developers locally at least twice... and no, the life is not that much cheaper over here.

scarface74 9y ago
As a US citizen, if I thought one state had lower wages than another state. I would just move to the state where the wages are better. Why can't a citizen of the EU do the same? Yes, I chose to leave a small town with no real opportunities after graduating.
- expertentipp 9y ago
  One can, but there is significant language and cultural barrier, one is paying awfully high social contributions while the person's family stays in a different country. Plus many in developed countries are prejudiced against employees from developing countries ("you have to agree for less, to put your foot in the door and learn our superior ways of doing things" kind of stuff).
  - scarface74 9y ago
    Still trying to understand. You're a citizen of the EU as is your family. Why leave your family behind? Not having been to Europe so I don't know, but if you speak English does that help make mobility easier?
    - expertentipp 9y ago
      Family might not be willing to suddenly be surrounded by completely different language? By completely different legal, administrative, and educational environment? Oftentimes, all these not exactly welcoming to their particular origin/ethnicity (e.g. who is considered an expat and who an immigrant). The chances of a 45-65 year old family member finding a job in new place is basically nil, from social and pensions systems they will receive only humiliation. Also, soon English will barely even be among official languages of the EU.
      - hycaria 9y ago
        What's your point exactly ? That we can't all get Switzerland salaries even when living in remote areas where the cost of life is way lower, all this while being unwilling to move to cash out for a few years ?
    - okaram 9y ago
      BTW, they may be referring to what, for Americans, is 'extended family' ; that is, not your spouse and kids, but your brothers, parents, uncles etc :) It is great to have your whole family around; they will probably not move with you :)
      - scarface74 9y ago
        Again, so what? My responsible is to myself, my spouse, and my kids. I'm going to move to wherever I can get the better quality of life for us is. If I have dependent relatives like parents, they would have to move where I move. EDIT: Thanks for the possible clarification. I'm thinking very US centric. I forgot that many other cultures seem to place a higher value on being close to and living with extended family than we do.
        mgkimsal 9y ago
        > I'm going to move to wherever I can get the better quality of life for us is Not just non-US families. I worked with a guy years ago who complained about pay. He was paid ok but not great. I told him about some other opps which would double his pay, and not in high COL areas either - roughly one midwest town to another. He wouldn't consider it, because they were too close to family in that area - his family, his wife's family, and extended family. They were just too close to consider ripping his 4 person family away from the other 15+ family members - shared school, shared church, shared family outings, etc. "What about for 3x your income?" "Nope, just couldn't move away from the family". So... he knew he was trading some money for "quality of life" - having large family close by was one of the qualities he valued in his life more than raw cash.
        scarface74 9y ago
        Increase salary over a certain point has decreasing marginal utility. Where that decreasing marginal utility is, is based on the person. In the last 6 years. I've had two major bumps by changing jobs - both 20K. The first 20K made life a lot easier on our family. Allowed us to buy a house the size we wanted in the neighborhood we wanted. The 2nd 20K helped us be able to save, pay down debt aggressively, help our older son who is just starting out on his own. The path to making another 20K bump would lead to either contracting (would probably mean giving up my flexible schedule as the dev lead), consulting (a lot of traveling), or middle management (no interest in giving up actual hands on coding). The first two options aren't something I want to do until my son graduates. I never want to do the third options. If I was forced to make the same choices to get the first 20K bump, I would have, the second bump, maybe. But I'm not willing to do that now.
PeterisP 9y ago
If they're offering such wages and getting candidates to work for such wages, then that's the (local) market wage, by definition. Pay of developers elsewhere and cost of life are not relevant, "market wages" is the salary level (in that particular market) where the job offers and willing candidates meet. All your arguments state "the market wage here is low compared to other markets", not companies not offering market wages - "not offering market level wages" look like a large number of job postings that are not getting filled for a long term because candidates reject these jobs. However, if those job positions are getting filled at that rate (even if begrudgingly) then that's the market rate then and there.
- expertentipp 9y ago
  > If they're offering such wages and getting candidates to work for such wages, then that's the (local) market wage, by definition Let me phrase it this way - it's very difficult to find software dev/eng older than 33-35 and the only career path for them is middle management (i.e. distributing tight budget over undemanding workforce). The employers notoriously complain for not being able to find "specialists".
  - scarface74 9y ago
    That's only true if you're looking to work for one of the cool, hip, startups. There are plenty of older devs working in boring corporate jobs that are not interested in changing the world. I'm one of them.
    - expertentipp 9y ago
      That’s corporate jobs I’m talking about. We refactor and support that awful ASP.NET web app written hecticly 10 years ago by some hipsters, we develop products for markets which are not so profitable or prestigious. There are almost no cool hip startups and those existng are not worth attention because they pay peanuts and usually are just proxy for cheap labour. I think we are talking about completely different job markets.

scarface74 9y ago

As a US citizen, if I thought one state had lower wages than another state. I would just move to the state where the wages are better. Why can't a citizen of the EU do the same? Yes, I chose to leave a small town with no real opportunities after graduating.

expertentipp 9y ago
One can, but there is significant language and cultural barrier, one is paying awfully high social contributions while the person's family stays in a different country. Plus many in developed countries are prejudiced against employees from developing countries ("you have to agree for less, to put your foot in the door and learn our superior ways of doing things" kind of stuff).
- scarface74 9y ago
  Still trying to understand. You're a citizen of the EU as is your family. Why leave your family behind? Not having been to Europe so I don't know, but if you speak English does that help make mobility easier?
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    Family might not be willing to suddenly be surrounded by completely different language? By completely different legal, administrative, and educational environment? Oftentimes, all these not exactly welcoming to their particular origin/ethnicity (e.g. who is considered an expat and who an immigrant). The chances of a 45-65 year old family member finding a job in new place is basically nil, from social and pensions systems they will receive only humiliation. Also, soon English will barely even be among official languages of the EU.
    - hycaria 9y ago
      What's your point exactly ? That we can't all get Switzerland salaries even when living in remote areas where the cost of life is way lower, all this while being unwilling to move to cash out for a few years ?
  - okaram 9y ago
    BTW, they may be referring to what, for Americans, is 'extended family' ; that is, not your spouse and kids, but your brothers, parents, uncles etc :) It is great to have your whole family around; they will probably not move with you :)
    - scarface74 9y ago
      Again, so what? My responsible is to myself, my spouse, and my kids. I'm going to move to wherever I can get the better quality of life for us is. If I have dependent relatives like parents, they would have to move where I move. EDIT: Thanks for the possible clarification. I'm thinking very US centric. I forgot that many other cultures seem to place a higher value on being close to and living with extended family than we do.
      - mgkimsal 9y ago
        > I'm going to move to wherever I can get the better quality of life for us is Not just non-US families. I worked with a guy years ago who complained about pay. He was paid ok but not great. I told him about some other opps which would double his pay, and not in high COL areas either - roughly one midwest town to another. He wouldn't consider it, because they were too close to family in that area - his family, his wife's family, and extended family. They were just too close to consider ripping his 4 person family away from the other 15+ family members - shared school, shared church, shared family outings, etc. "What about for 3x your income?" "Nope, just couldn't move away from the family". So... he knew he was trading some money for "quality of life" - having large family close by was one of the qualities he valued in his life more than raw cash.
        scarface74 9y ago
        Increase salary over a certain point has decreasing marginal utility. Where that decreasing marginal utility is, is based on the person. In the last 6 years. I've had two major bumps by changing jobs - both 20K. The first 20K made life a lot easier on our family. Allowed us to buy a house the size we wanted in the neighborhood we wanted. The 2nd 20K helped us be able to save, pay down debt aggressively, help our older son who is just starting out on his own. The path to making another 20K bump would lead to either contracting (would probably mean giving up my flexible schedule as the dev lead), consulting (a lot of traveling), or middle management (no interest in giving up actual hands on coding). The first two options aren't something I want to do until my son graduates. I never want to do the third options. If I was forced to make the same choices to get the first 20K bump, I would have, the second bump, maybe. But I'm not willing to do that now.

PeterisP 9y ago

If they're offering such wages and getting candidates to work for such wages, then that's the (local) market wage, by definition. Pay of developers elsewhere and cost of life are not relevant, "market wages" is the salary level (in that particular market) where the job offers and willing candidates meet. All your arguments state "the market wage here is low compared to other markets", not companies not offering market wages - "not offering market level wages" look like a large number of job postings that are not getting filled for a long term because candidates reject these jobs. However, if those job positions are getting filled at that rate (even if begrudgingly) then that's the market rate then and there.

expertentipp 9y ago
> If they're offering such wages and getting candidates to work for such wages, then that's the (local) market wage, by definition Let me phrase it this way - it's very difficult to find software dev/eng older than 33-35 and the only career path for them is middle management (i.e. distributing tight budget over undemanding workforce). The employers notoriously complain for not being able to find "specialists".
- scarface74 9y ago
  That's only true if you're looking to work for one of the cool, hip, startups. There are plenty of older devs working in boring corporate jobs that are not interested in changing the world. I'm one of them.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    That’s corporate jobs I’m talking about. We refactor and support that awful ASP.NET web app written hecticly 10 years ago by some hipsters, we develop products for markets which are not so profitable or prestigious. There are almost no cool hip startups and those existng are not worth attention because they pay peanuts and usually are just proxy for cheap labour. I think we are talking about completely different job markets.