10 ms·

One of the issues I've had that isn't mentioned here is the value of mutual trust. Communication and trust are the two cornerstones of a really solid manager <-

by Greed 9y ago

One of the issues I've had that isn't mentioned here is the value of mutual trust. Communication and trust are the two cornerstones of a really solid manager <-> managee relationship in my experience. Whether that lack of trust manifests itself as micro-management, constant check-ins, or a constant threat of surveillance it can easily turn an above average performer into an apathetic and demoralized employee. I used to work remotely for a company that spanned more than a few timezones, with a wonderful daily team manager and a not-so-great weekly department manager. Learning that my minutes and output were constantly monitored completely destroyed my trust with the latter, and had me searching within the week. My reaction to that was so strong I actually considered it a fortune when I was laid off for unrelated reasons rather than having to quit. I would be reprimanded for signing on five minutes later than usual despite being on a team of individuals that spanned multiple countries, and would get a questioning ping if I was offline for more than 10 minutes (especially problematic if you're the type of programmer to write or plan code on the whiteboard / paper first). Extremely draining to deal with that sort of nonsense and mistrust. Please, managers of the world, trust your employees! You have performance metrics for a reason!

crdoconnor 9y ago
IME this kind of experience comes when you have a manager who has no fundamental understanding of what it is that they are managing and has no particular reason to trust you. A manager who can monitor your output by reading your pull requests simply won't engage in this type of behavior whereas a manager who can't will usually instinctively gravitate to terrible metrics like "does he show dedication by being in at 9am rather than 9:05am"? Managers should form a very deep understanding of whom to trust and why or understand on a very deep level what it is that they are managing. Managers who cannot do either of those things should be terminated with prejudice. >You have performance metrics for a reason! As far as developing software goes, every single performance metric is terrible.
- subsubsub 9y ago
  Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional. As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. Turning up on time is a good way to show your manager that you can be trusted. Edit: Actually, turning up on time may not make your manager trust you more, but turning up late will definitely make them trust you less.
  - michaelt 9y ago
    In software engineering, many companies prioritise "getting your work done" (which is admittedly a subjective, hard-to-quantify metric) and consider any metric that contradicts it to be suspect. A person who believes this would say that if according to policy my best employee should work 9am-5pm, but he prefers to work from 7am-3pm and is my best employee, it is the policy not the employee that needs changing. Personally, I always try to get to the bottom of this stuff during job interviews - nobody wins if the employee assumes there will be flex-time and the company doesn't allow it!
    - cpfohl 9y ago
      This. I've literally never held a job that wasn't okay flex time, and I've worked at 4 radically different types of companies as a software engineer over the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I was surprised to read this sorry if environment still existed for programmers
      - dagw 9y ago
        I think the criteria should be turn up on time when it matters. If there is a staff meeting scheduled at 9.30, don't show up at 9.45. Otherwise I agree that day to day most places shouldn't care
        logfromblammo 9y ago
        At one workplace, the manager instituted a daily all-hands meeting starting at 8:45 AM. But of course you still have flexible working hours; you just have to show up for this one meeting whose start time can't be changed because there definitely are reasons. Yes, I was already interviewing at other places when that happened.
- lazy_lanius 9y ago
  An old co-worker of mine used to work for a company that made flight simulators. He said his manager would stand in the front foyer on the 2nd floor and make notes of who arrived after 9:00am.
  - jcadam 9y ago
    I would have fun trolling such a boss. When I was younger, I would stress about job security; work OT whenever asked, say yes to every request, etc. Now that I'm in my late 30s... I'm finding I have more self-confidence than I've ever had in my life. Couple that with a general sense of professional ennui that's been steadily building over the last few years, and you get someone who just doesn't care if you fire him and acts accordingly.
- Jerry64545 9y ago
  This is very true in india. Almost most of the managers go in to management because they can't code and to evalulate an employee they take every metric other than looking in to the commits.
larschdk 9y ago
A couple of articles, that I found previously here on HN address this exact self-perpetuating downward spiral of mistrust. https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome https://sites.insead.edu/facultyresearch/research/doc.cfm?did=46698 https://sites.insead.edu/facultyresearch/research/doc.cfm?di... Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8166701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8166701
alphonsegaston 9y ago
But also for teams to be successful, employees have to be able to trust their managers. I just quit a job after a month because, within that short time, my manager twice misrepresented the scope of a task so he could either leave early or have the day off. I knew after those incidents that there was no point in continuing. It would be foolish to trust someone in any larger way who would casually treat a new employee in that fashion.

by Greed 9y ago

crdoconnor 9y ago

IME this kind of experience comes when you have a manager who has no fundamental understanding of what it is that they are managing and has no particular reason to trust you. A manager who can monitor your output by reading your pull requests simply won't engage in this type of behavior whereas a manager who can't will usually instinctively gravitate to terrible metrics like "does he show dedication by being in at 9am rather than 9:05am"? Managers should form a very deep understanding of whom to trust and why or understand on a very deep level what it is that they are managing. Managers who cannot do either of those things should be terminated with prejudice. >You have performance metrics for a reason! As far as developing software goes, every single performance metric is terrible.

subsubsub 9y ago
Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional. As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. Turning up on time is a good way to show your manager that you can be trusted. Edit: Actually, turning up on time may not make your manager trust you more, but turning up late will definitely make them trust you less.
- michaelt 9y ago
  In software engineering, many companies prioritise "getting your work done" (which is admittedly a subjective, hard-to-quantify metric) and consider any metric that contradicts it to be suspect. A person who believes this would say that if according to policy my best employee should work 9am-5pm, but he prefers to work from 7am-3pm and is my best employee, it is the policy not the employee that needs changing. Personally, I always try to get to the bottom of this stuff during job interviews - nobody wins if the employee assumes there will be flex-time and the company doesn't allow it!
  - cpfohl 9y ago
    This. I've literally never held a job that wasn't okay flex time, and I've worked at 4 radically different types of companies as a software engineer over the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I was surprised to read this sorry if environment still existed for programmers
    - dagw 9y ago
      I think the criteria should be turn up on time when it matters. If there is a staff meeting scheduled at 9.30, don't show up at 9.45. Otherwise I agree that day to day most places shouldn't care
      - logfromblammo 9y ago
        At one workplace, the manager instituted a daily all-hands meeting starting at 8:45 AM. But of course you still have flexible working hours; you just have to show up for this one meeting whose start time can't be changed because there definitely are reasons. Yes, I was already interviewing at other places when that happened.
lazy_lanius 9y ago
An old co-worker of mine used to work for a company that made flight simulators. He said his manager would stand in the front foyer on the 2nd floor and make notes of who arrived after 9:00am.
- jcadam 9y ago
  I would have fun trolling such a boss. When I was younger, I would stress about job security; work OT whenever asked, say yes to every request, etc. Now that I'm in my late 30s... I'm finding I have more self-confidence than I've ever had in my life. Couple that with a general sense of professional ennui that's been steadily building over the last few years, and you get someone who just doesn't care if you fire him and acts accordingly.
Jerry64545 9y ago
This is very true in india. Almost most of the managers go in to management because they can't code and to evalulate an employee they take every metric other than looking in to the commits.

larschdk 9y ago

A couple of articles, that I found previously here on HN address this exact self-perpetuating downward spiral of mistrust. https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome https://sites.insead.edu/facultyresearch/research/doc.cfm?did=46698 https://sites.insead.edu/facultyresearch/research/doc.cfm?di... Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8166701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8166701

alphonsegaston 9y ago

But also for teams to be successful, employees have to be able to trust their managers. I just quit a job after a month because, within that short time, my manager twice misrepresented the scope of a task so he could either leave early or have the day off. I knew after those incidents that there was no point in continuing. It would be foolish to trust someone in any larger way who would casually treat a new employee in that fashion.