4 ms·

The problem is that in the most of the Europe they dont’t pay market wages. Way below them. Certainly not enough to keep up to date with the the JS framework br

The problem is that in the most of the Europe they dont’t pay market wages. Way below them. Certainly not enough to keep up to date with the the JS framework brainfuck.

scarface74 9y ago
Statistically, how can most of a market not pay market wages?
- expertentipp 9y ago
  The entire market being low cost, or at the bottom of corporate outsourcing chain. Market rates == they have higher recruitment requirements than in developed markets where there are higher wages.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    I'm still trying to parse that. If the market in question is paying low wages for the industry, that is the market rate. The entire market can't pay below market rate. Are you sure that the rate is below market or are you just looking at the inflated rates of the west coast in the U.S.? I don't live on the west coast, I live in a major metropolitan area in the south, with good wages for developers (90-140K with experience) and even that would be considered below market compared to the west coast.
    - expertentipp 9y ago
      How about developing EU country with wages 25-35K? Doing project exclusively for German/British/American markets, where one would have to pay developers locally at least twice... and no, the life is not that much cheaper over here.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        As a US citizen, if I thought one state had lower wages than another state. I would just move to the state where the wages are better. Why can't a citizen of the EU do the same? Yes, I chose to leave a small town with no real opportunities after graduating.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        One can, but there is significant language and cultural barrier, one is paying awfully high social contributions while the person's family stays in a different country. Plus many in developed countries are prejudiced against employees from developing countries ("you have to agree for less, to put your foot in the door and learn our superior ways of doing things" kind of stuff).
        scarface74 9y ago
        Still trying to understand. You're a citizen of the EU as is your family. Why leave your family behind? Not having been to Europe so I don't know, but if you speak English does that help make mobility easier?
        expertentipp 9y ago
        Family might not be willing to suddenly be surrounded by completely different language? By completely different legal, administrative, and educational environment? Oftentimes, all these not exactly welcoming to their particular origin/ethnicity (e.g. who is considered an expat and who an immigrant). The chances of a 45-65 year old family member finding a job in new place is basically nil, from social and pensions systems they will receive only humiliation. Also, soon English will barely even be among official languages of the EU.
        hycaria 9y ago
        What's your point exactly ? That we can't all get Switzerland salaries even when living in remote areas where the cost of life is way lower, all this while being unwilling to move to cash out for a few years ?
      - PeterisP 9y ago
        If they're offering such wages and getting candidates to work for such wages, then that's the (local) market wage, by definition. Pay of developers elsewhere and cost of life are not relevant, "market wages" is the salary level (in that particular market) where the job offers and willing candidates meet. All your arguments state "the market wage here is low compared to other markets", not companies not offering market wages - "not offering market level wages" look like a large number of job postings that are not getting filled for a long term because candidates reject these jobs. However, if those job positions are getting filled at that rate (even if begrudgingly) then that's the market rate then and there.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        > If they're offering such wages and getting candidates to work for such wages, then that's the (local) market wage, by definition Let me phrase it this way - it's very difficult to find software dev/eng older than 33-35 and the only career path for them is middle management (i.e. distributing tight budget over undemanding workforce). The employers notoriously complain for not being able to find "specialists".
        scarface74 9y ago
        That's only true if you're looking to work for one of the cool, hip, startups. There are plenty of older devs working in boring corporate jobs that are not interested in changing the world. I'm one of them.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        That’s corporate jobs I’m talking about. We refactor and support that awful ASP.NET web app written hecticly 10 years ago by some hipsters, we develop products for markets which are not so profitable or prestigious. There are almost no cool hip startups and those existng are not worth attention because they pay peanuts and usually are just proxy for cheap labour. I think we are talking about completely different job markets.
    - dagw 9y ago
      90-140K And even that is at least 50% higher than the pre-tax wages of a good developer in Sweden.
      - expertentipp 9y ago
        Still too much, that's why you nearshore to Czechia, Poland, and Romania.
        dagw 9y ago
        Ukraine seems to be the new go to place in my experience
        expertentipp 9y ago
        Ukrainians flee like crazy to Czechia, Poland, and Germany. The rates offered in Ukraine are literally a spat in the face, also the country offers almost no social security. It's a sad and dark place to create the software in - corporations love it.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        It's all relative. 100K where I live affords you a nice house, in a decent area of town with good school systems. $170K household income (one developer salary and one person doing basically anything) allows you to easily afford a home in one of the top 25 most affluent counties in the U.S. with plenty of wiggle room in your budget. Our lifestyle wouldn't be the same in the Bay Area. Also, from what I understand, Sweden has a lot of benefits that we have to pay for in the US (healthcare, post secondary education, paid parental leave, etc.)

The problem is that in the most of the Europe they dont’t pay market wages. Way below them. Certainly not enough to keep up to date with the the JS framework brainfuck.

scarface74 9y ago

Statistically, how can most of a market not pay market wages?

expertentipp 9y ago
The entire market being low cost, or at the bottom of corporate outsourcing chain. Market rates == they have higher recruitment requirements than in developed markets where there are higher wages.
- scarface74 9y ago
  I'm still trying to parse that. If the market in question is paying low wages for the industry, that is the market rate. The entire market can't pay below market rate. Are you sure that the rate is below market or are you just looking at the inflated rates of the west coast in the U.S.? I don't live on the west coast, I live in a major metropolitan area in the south, with good wages for developers (90-140K with experience) and even that would be considered below market compared to the west coast.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    How about developing EU country with wages 25-35K? Doing project exclusively for German/British/American markets, where one would have to pay developers locally at least twice... and no, the life is not that much cheaper over here.
    - scarface74 9y ago
      As a US citizen, if I thought one state had lower wages than another state. I would just move to the state where the wages are better. Why can't a citizen of the EU do the same? Yes, I chose to leave a small town with no real opportunities after graduating.
      - expertentipp 9y ago
        One can, but there is significant language and cultural barrier, one is paying awfully high social contributions while the person's family stays in a different country. Plus many in developed countries are prejudiced against employees from developing countries ("you have to agree for less, to put your foot in the door and learn our superior ways of doing things" kind of stuff).
        scarface74 9y ago
        Still trying to understand. You're a citizen of the EU as is your family. Why leave your family behind? Not having been to Europe so I don't know, but if you speak English does that help make mobility easier?
        expertentipp 9y ago
        Family might not be willing to suddenly be surrounded by completely different language? By completely different legal, administrative, and educational environment? Oftentimes, all these not exactly welcoming to their particular origin/ethnicity (e.g. who is considered an expat and who an immigrant). The chances of a 45-65 year old family member finding a job in new place is basically nil, from social and pensions systems they will receive only humiliation. Also, soon English will barely even be among official languages of the EU.
        hycaria 9y ago
        What's your point exactly ? That we can't all get Switzerland salaries even when living in remote areas where the cost of life is way lower, all this while being unwilling to move to cash out for a few years ?
    - PeterisP 9y ago
      If they're offering such wages and getting candidates to work for such wages, then that's the (local) market wage, by definition. Pay of developers elsewhere and cost of life are not relevant, "market wages" is the salary level (in that particular market) where the job offers and willing candidates meet. All your arguments state "the market wage here is low compared to other markets", not companies not offering market wages - "not offering market level wages" look like a large number of job postings that are not getting filled for a long term because candidates reject these jobs. However, if those job positions are getting filled at that rate (even if begrudgingly) then that's the market rate then and there.
      - expertentipp 9y ago
        > If they're offering such wages and getting candidates to work for such wages, then that's the (local) market wage, by definition Let me phrase it this way - it's very difficult to find software dev/eng older than 33-35 and the only career path for them is middle management (i.e. distributing tight budget over undemanding workforce). The employers notoriously complain for not being able to find "specialists".
        scarface74 9y ago
        That's only true if you're looking to work for one of the cool, hip, startups. There are plenty of older devs working in boring corporate jobs that are not interested in changing the world. I'm one of them.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        That’s corporate jobs I’m talking about. We refactor and support that awful ASP.NET web app written hecticly 10 years ago by some hipsters, we develop products for markets which are not so profitable or prestigious. There are almost no cool hip startups and those existng are not worth attention because they pay peanuts and usually are just proxy for cheap labour. I think we are talking about completely different job markets.
  - dagw 9y ago
    90-140K And even that is at least 50% higher than the pre-tax wages of a good developer in Sweden.
    - expertentipp 9y ago
      Still too much, that's why you nearshore to Czechia, Poland, and Romania.
      - dagw 9y ago
        Ukraine seems to be the new go to place in my experience
        expertentipp 9y ago
        Ukrainians flee like crazy to Czechia, Poland, and Germany. The rates offered in Ukraine are literally a spat in the face, also the country offers almost no social security. It's a sad and dark place to create the software in - corporations love it.
    - scarface74 9y ago
      It's all relative. 100K where I live affords you a nice house, in a decent area of town with good school systems. $170K household income (one developer salary and one person doing basically anything) allows you to easily afford a home in one of the top 25 most affluent counties in the U.S. with plenty of wiggle room in your budget. Our lifestyle wouldn't be the same in the Bay Area. Also, from what I understand, Sweden has a lot of benefits that we have to pay for in the US (healthcare, post secondary education, paid parental leave, etc.)