4 ms·

I can't say for certain, because I wasn't involved in the decision. ;) My gut reaction is that it only ends up being seen as OK because the group being penalize

I can't say for certain, because I wasn't involved in the decision. ;) My gut reaction is that it only ends up being seen as OK because the group being penalized has historically been at an advantage in most other areas financially. I am aware that some European countries are moving to do away with charging by gender.

dogruck 9y ago
Well, then women will be forced to pay more than their fair share for car insurance, putting them at even more of a disadvantage. Right?
- eloff 9y ago
  And this observation is downvoted because? It's just stating obviously true facts as far as I can tell. edit And then I get downvoted for sticking my neck out. Let me break the parent post down. It asserts that charging genders equally will shift more burden to women. This is clearly true because premiums are higher for men because we have more accidents (so much for all the female driver jokes). It also asserts women were a previously disadvantaged class. Also clearly true. So to the downvoters out there, you might have found something disagreeable about the parent post, but you're wrong and he's right.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    Look at my other reply to the parent post for my explanation as to why I disagree.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    I see two things wrong in the post: > fair share Male drivers and female drivers don't have a "fair share" of insurance costs. No one should be obligated to pay for the actions of others simply because they're the same sex. Driving risk should be evaluated on an individual basis based on those individuals' behavior. > putting them at even more of a disadvantage Young women are no longer at a disadvantage. Young women graduate college more often and earn more than young men. I focus on young women and young men in this case because those are the people most affected by gender discrimination in auto insurance pricing, because they lack individual driving records on which to base insurance rates.
    - eloff 9y ago
      I've heard there's an app for that in the US, you drive with it for a week or two and then they adjust your premiums according to how you drive. That would be a more fair system. We're not discussing that though, we're discussing the current system vs one where insurance companies can't discriminate on the basis of gender - clearly that advantages men unfairly and disadvantages women unfairly. Yeah the system is still unfair the way it is, but this change would make it more so. Women graduate from college more often, but college is not what it once was - I'm a college dropout and I'm sure I earn more than most graduates (plus I don't have the debt.) Women still earn less than men. Your claim that they earn more is just false.
      - leereeves 9y ago
        Young women earn more than young men, I said. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-e... http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/ http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/ http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274...
        eloff 9y ago
        That's interesting, although as those sources indicate, the pay gap increases with age so that by the time women hit their mid thirties they're substantially behind men in compensation (for the same work.) It's an improvement to be sure, but I wouldn't go so far as to call the problem solved and say that women aren't still a disadvantaged class, when it comes to compensation.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    This is a common mistake. Reducing inequality is not morally equivalent to penalizing the person who was previously in a superior position.
  - realworldview 9y ago
    Don’t worry about downvotes; oppression by the status quo for random and varying reasons is a discriminatory mechanism to make our words invisible. Keep commenting!
  - dogruck 9y ago
    I suspect few HN users could provide sound logic to support their anonymous downvotes. Downvotes are good — at least it means there’s a chance someone eventually modulates their current viewpoint.
- gambiting 9y ago
  The issue here is the phrase "fair share" - why is it a fair share? Because women get into fewer accidents? Cool, what if we get out of the statistical data that black people have more accidents(this is just an example, I don't know if they really do)? Should it be justified to charge them more? But maybe if you look beneath the surface you will find out that minorities are more likely to drive older, less safe cars, which leads to them having more accidents - they don't have more accidents because they are black, they have more accidents because of other factors. The same with men and women - I think it's fair to say that men drive more powerful, larger cars(on average) than women do. So....they get into more accidents because the cars they drive are objectively more difficult to drive. Which obviously means that you should calculate your premium based on the type of vehicle being insured, not on the gender of the driver - and, by extension, insurance for a man and a woman, on the same vehicle, should be identical. Penalizing a man in this situation because men as a group get into more accidents is absolutely unfair.
  - barsonme 9y ago
    > I think it's fair to say that men drive more powerful, larger cars(on average) than women do I know you're sorta spitballing here, but at least in my experience that's a bit backwards. Around here, I'd guess women drive SUVs more than men do. Growing up, fathers would buy their daughters SUVs because they were safer. Now, husbands have their wives drive the family SUV for the same reason. Plus, moms and minivans, etc. That might just be a thing in the area I grew up, though. It's probably different in downtown Seattle. > So....they get into more accidents because the cars they drive are objectively more difficult to drive. I'd bet the testosterone doesn't help much, either :-)
    - gambiting 9y ago
      Maybe it's different in US, but over here in UK with everyone I know the ratio I see is a man with an SUV/large powerful sedan, woman with a small city car to get to work and back. Moms in minivans isn't as much of a stereotype because kids just walk to school or take the bus/metro. I suspect it's more common in rural areas but in my experience taking kids to school by car is still not the primary way of getting to school. But obviously that's just my experience, my perspective. I'd love to see actual data on this , especially power and size of cars grouped by gender. >>I'd bet the testosterone doesn't help much, either :-) Women have their own behaviour-affecting hormones too, you know.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
gambiting 9y ago
Not some - as far as I am aware, all of EU has now banned charging men more for car insurance.
- FabHK 9y ago
  Not only car insurance, but also eg life insurance. Men used to pay up 50% more, now they pay less and women pay more - all tariffs are "unisex" now.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    The US did the same thing with health insurance. It seems the moral debate is over; charging different rates for insurance based on gender has been deemed discrimination throughout the first world. All that remains to do in the US is find the political will to outlaw discrimination that favors women.

dogruck 9y ago

Well, then women will be forced to pay more than their fair share for car insurance, putting them at even more of a disadvantage. Right?

eloff 9y ago
And this observation is downvoted because? It's just stating obviously true facts as far as I can tell. edit And then I get downvoted for sticking my neck out. Let me break the parent post down. It asserts that charging genders equally will shift more burden to women. This is clearly true because premiums are higher for men because we have more accidents (so much for all the female driver jokes). It also asserts women were a previously disadvantaged class. Also clearly true. So to the downvoters out there, you might have found something disagreeable about the parent post, but you're wrong and he's right.
- gambiting 9y ago
  Look at my other reply to the parent post for my explanation as to why I disagree.
- leereeves 9y ago
  I see two things wrong in the post: > fair share Male drivers and female drivers don't have a "fair share" of insurance costs. No one should be obligated to pay for the actions of others simply because they're the same sex. Driving risk should be evaluated on an individual basis based on those individuals' behavior. > putting them at even more of a disadvantage Young women are no longer at a disadvantage. Young women graduate college more often and earn more than young men. I focus on young women and young men in this case because those are the people most affected by gender discrimination in auto insurance pricing, because they lack individual driving records on which to base insurance rates.
  - eloff 9y ago
    I've heard there's an app for that in the US, you drive with it for a week or two and then they adjust your premiums according to how you drive. That would be a more fair system. We're not discussing that though, we're discussing the current system vs one where insurance companies can't discriminate on the basis of gender - clearly that advantages men unfairly and disadvantages women unfairly. Yeah the system is still unfair the way it is, but this change would make it more so. Women graduate from college more often, but college is not what it once was - I'm a college dropout and I'm sure I earn more than most graduates (plus I don't have the debt.) Women still earn less than men. Your claim that they earn more is just false.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      Young women earn more than young men, I said. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-e... http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/ http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/ http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274...
      - eloff 9y ago
        That's interesting, although as those sources indicate, the pay gap increases with age so that by the time women hit their mid thirties they're substantially behind men in compensation (for the same work.) It's an improvement to be sure, but I wouldn't go so far as to call the problem solved and say that women aren't still a disadvantaged class, when it comes to compensation.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  This is a common mistake. Reducing inequality is not morally equivalent to penalizing the person who was previously in a superior position.
- realworldview 9y ago
  Don’t worry about downvotes; oppression by the status quo for random and varying reasons is a discriminatory mechanism to make our words invisible. Keep commenting!
- dogruck 9y ago
  I suspect few HN users could provide sound logic to support their anonymous downvotes. Downvotes are good — at least it means there’s a chance someone eventually modulates their current viewpoint.
gambiting 9y ago
The issue here is the phrase "fair share" - why is it a fair share? Because women get into fewer accidents? Cool, what if we get out of the statistical data that black people have more accidents(this is just an example, I don't know if they really do)? Should it be justified to charge them more? But maybe if you look beneath the surface you will find out that minorities are more likely to drive older, less safe cars, which leads to them having more accidents - they don't have more accidents because they are black, they have more accidents because of other factors. The same with men and women - I think it's fair to say that men drive more powerful, larger cars(on average) than women do. So....they get into more accidents because the cars they drive are objectively more difficult to drive. Which obviously means that you should calculate your premium based on the type of vehicle being insured, not on the gender of the driver - and, by extension, insurance for a man and a woman, on the same vehicle, should be identical. Penalizing a man in this situation because men as a group get into more accidents is absolutely unfair.
- barsonme 9y ago
  > I think it's fair to say that men drive more powerful, larger cars(on average) than women do I know you're sorta spitballing here, but at least in my experience that's a bit backwards. Around here, I'd guess women drive SUVs more than men do. Growing up, fathers would buy their daughters SUVs because they were safer. Now, husbands have their wives drive the family SUV for the same reason. Plus, moms and minivans, etc. That might just be a thing in the area I grew up, though. It's probably different in downtown Seattle. > So....they get into more accidents because the cars they drive are objectively more difficult to drive. I'd bet the testosterone doesn't help much, either :-)
  - gambiting 9y ago
    Maybe it's different in US, but over here in UK with everyone I know the ratio I see is a man with an SUV/large powerful sedan, woman with a small city car to get to work and back. Moms in minivans isn't as much of a stereotype because kids just walk to school or take the bus/metro. I suspect it's more common in rural areas but in my experience taking kids to school by car is still not the primary way of getting to school. But obviously that's just my experience, my perspective. I'd love to see actual data on this , especially power and size of cars grouped by gender. >>I'd bet the testosterone doesn't help much, either :-) Women have their own behaviour-affecting hormones too, you know.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

gambiting 9y ago

Not some - as far as I am aware, all of EU has now banned charging men more for car insurance.

FabHK 9y ago
Not only car insurance, but also eg life insurance. Men used to pay up 50% more, now they pay less and women pay more - all tariffs are "unisex" now.
- leereeves 9y ago
  The US did the same thing with health insurance. It seems the moral debate is over; charging different rates for insurance based on gender has been deemed discrimination throughout the first world. All that remains to do in the US is find the political will to outlaw discrimination that favors women.