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Right, they don't want to have to pay you to do the learning. It's usually not "how to get a simple task done with React" – many engineers can get there very q

Right, they don't want to have to pay you to do the learning. It's usually not "how to get a simple task done with React" – many engineers can get there very quickly – but rather having an understanding of best-practices in terms of architecting your application. Angular, well, can take a while to learn how to use properly.

expertentipp 9y ago
The problem is that in the most of the Europe they dont’t pay market wages. Way below them. Certainly not enough to keep up to date with the the JS framework brainfuck.
- scarface74 9y ago
  Statistically, how can most of a market not pay market wages?
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    The entire market being low cost, or at the bottom of corporate outsourcing chain. Market rates == they have higher recruitment requirements than in developed markets where there are higher wages.
    - scarface74 9y ago
      I'm still trying to parse that. If the market in question is paying low wages for the industry, that is the market rate. The entire market can't pay below market rate. Are you sure that the rate is below market or are you just looking at the inflated rates of the west coast in the U.S.? I don't live on the west coast, I live in a major metropolitan area in the south, with good wages for developers (90-140K with experience) and even that would be considered below market compared to the west coast.
      - expertentipp 9y ago
        How about developing EU country with wages 25-35K? Doing project exclusively for German/British/American markets, where one would have to pay developers locally at least twice... and no, the life is not that much cheaper over here.
        scarface74 9y ago
        As a US citizen, if I thought one state had lower wages than another state. I would just move to the state where the wages are better. Why can't a citizen of the EU do the same? Yes, I chose to leave a small town with no real opportunities after graduating.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        One can, but there is significant language and cultural barrier, one is paying awfully high social contributions while the person's family stays in a different country. Plus many in developed countries are prejudiced against employees from developing countries ("you have to agree for less, to put your foot in the door and learn our superior ways of doing things" kind of stuff).
        scarface74 9y ago
        Still trying to understand. You're a citizen of the EU as is your family. Why leave your family behind? Not having been to Europe so I don't know, but if you speak English does that help make mobility easier?
        expertentipp 9y ago
        Family might not be willing to suddenly be surrounded by completely different language? By completely different legal, administrative, and educational environment? Oftentimes, all these not exactly welcoming to their particular origin/ethnicity (e.g. who is considered an expat and who an immigrant). The chances of a 45-65 year old family member finding a job in new place is basically nil, from social and pensions systems they will receive only humiliation. Also, soon English will barely even be among official languages of the EU.
flukus 9y ago
> It's usually not "how to get a simple task done with React" – many engineers can get there very quickly – but rather having an understanding of best-practices in terms of architecting your application. Perhaps I'm being too pedantic here, but the UI library used has very little to do with how you architect an application. Knowing how to write half decent sql or not reinvent your own message queue is far more important than whatever is happening on the front end, but you don't see the focus on them like you do with the latest javascript library.
- collyw 9y ago
  Completely agree, but have rarely had that asked about in interviews
- rattray 9y ago
  Ah, I had somehow assumed that these were predominantly frontend roles. In that case, I certainly agree the emphasis on one part of the stack feels odd.
AFNobody 9y ago
> It's usually not "how to get a simple task done with React" – many engineers can get there very quickly – but rather having an understanding of best-practices in terms of architecting your application. Find me a Web Developer than can perform a sysadmin role on production sites, building out a CRM integration on some bizarre platform with its own programming language, work on improving an ERP, and the integration between them. Oh, and you also need to know React and some standard MVC stack like RoR. No? --- Now, you might think that is a joke or absurd. It is not. It is also as relevant an expectation as asking if they know React. Your point of view screams silo'd front end developer.
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  I can do all that, but no one would want to pay what I'd charge for all that.
- PeterisP 9y ago
  If any large-ish company hired such a candidate, it would still likely use them in a pure front end development role, because administration of production sites would be handled by dedicated people (sometimes by necessity - e.g. PCI DSS and other security standards like to ensure a strong separation between development and production teams); CRM/ERP would be handled in a different team, etc. Specialization is a thing, if your team isn't tiny, you'll have different functions handled by different people.
  - AFNobody 9y ago
    People keep telling me that but I've worked in S&P 500 companies, startups, etc. Somehow, somehow it never seems to be true if you are doing anything close to "architecting" anything.

expertentipp 9y ago

The problem is that in the most of the Europe they dont’t pay market wages. Way below them. Certainly not enough to keep up to date with the the JS framework brainfuck.

scarface74 9y ago
Statistically, how can most of a market not pay market wages?
- expertentipp 9y ago
  The entire market being low cost, or at the bottom of corporate outsourcing chain. Market rates == they have higher recruitment requirements than in developed markets where there are higher wages.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    I'm still trying to parse that. If the market in question is paying low wages for the industry, that is the market rate. The entire market can't pay below market rate. Are you sure that the rate is below market or are you just looking at the inflated rates of the west coast in the U.S.? I don't live on the west coast, I live in a major metropolitan area in the south, with good wages for developers (90-140K with experience) and even that would be considered below market compared to the west coast.
    - expertentipp 9y ago
      How about developing EU country with wages 25-35K? Doing project exclusively for German/British/American markets, where one would have to pay developers locally at least twice... and no, the life is not that much cheaper over here.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        As a US citizen, if I thought one state had lower wages than another state. I would just move to the state where the wages are better. Why can't a citizen of the EU do the same? Yes, I chose to leave a small town with no real opportunities after graduating.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        One can, but there is significant language and cultural barrier, one is paying awfully high social contributions while the person's family stays in a different country. Plus many in developed countries are prejudiced against employees from developing countries ("you have to agree for less, to put your foot in the door and learn our superior ways of doing things" kind of stuff).
        scarface74 9y ago
        Still trying to understand. You're a citizen of the EU as is your family. Why leave your family behind? Not having been to Europe so I don't know, but if you speak English does that help make mobility easier?
        expertentipp 9y ago
        Family might not be willing to suddenly be surrounded by completely different language? By completely different legal, administrative, and educational environment? Oftentimes, all these not exactly welcoming to their particular origin/ethnicity (e.g. who is considered an expat and who an immigrant). The chances of a 45-65 year old family member finding a job in new place is basically nil, from social and pensions systems they will receive only humiliation. Also, soon English will barely even be among official languages of the EU.

flukus 9y ago

> It's usually not "how to get a simple task done with React" – many engineers can get there very quickly – but rather having an understanding of best-practices in terms of architecting your application. Perhaps I'm being too pedantic here, but the UI library used has very little to do with how you architect an application. Knowing how to write half decent sql or not reinvent your own message queue is far more important than whatever is happening on the front end, but you don't see the focus on them like you do with the latest javascript library.

collyw 9y ago
Completely agree, but have rarely had that asked about in interviews
rattray 9y ago
Ah, I had somehow assumed that these were predominantly frontend roles. In that case, I certainly agree the emphasis on one part of the stack feels odd.

AFNobody 9y ago

> It's usually not "how to get a simple task done with React" – many engineers can get there very quickly – but rather having an understanding of best-practices in terms of architecting your application. Find me a Web Developer than can perform a sysadmin role on production sites, building out a CRM integration on some bizarre platform with its own programming language, work on improving an ERP, and the integration between them. Oh, and you also need to know React and some standard MVC stack like RoR. No? --- Now, you might think that is a joke or absurd. It is not. It is also as relevant an expectation as asking if they know React. Your point of view screams silo'd front end developer.

mgkimsal 9y ago
I can do all that, but no one would want to pay what I'd charge for all that.
PeterisP 9y ago
If any large-ish company hired such a candidate, it would still likely use them in a pure front end development role, because administration of production sites would be handled by dedicated people (sometimes by necessity - e.g. PCI DSS and other security standards like to ensure a strong separation between development and production teams); CRM/ERP would be handled in a different team, etc. Specialization is a thing, if your team isn't tiny, you'll have different functions handled by different people.
- AFNobody 9y ago
  People keep telling me that but I've worked in S&P 500 companies, startups, etc. Somehow, somehow it never seems to be true if you are doing anything close to "architecting" anything.