5 ms·

Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things?

by nexus2045 9y ago

Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I feel monitored and treated like a idiotic teenager still, despite turning 29 this year) UNLESS I move to work in the States (paid more, have excuse to rent my own place). If it sounds entitled that I am complaining about free rent, it probably is, but from my point of view I've barely grown up as an adult because the environment at home has never changed.

danharaj 9y ago
> So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? The job didn't cure my depression but the money let me do the things I need to do to be happy. I stayed with my parents for a bit when I got my first programming job. Moving out was one major positive thing for me. Money doesn't make you happy, but you only really have power over your life when you have money. That's the blunt truth. Most of us, even us relatively well off programmers are subordinated to the system that gives us money. My mental health would be in even better shape if I didn't have to consign 40 hours of my life per week to work. If one needed that time to get their life in order to cure their depression, it would be impossible unless they were rich, right? The way we talk about depression often ignores this crucial point.
- lisper 9y ago
  I can vouch for this. Money is not sufficient, and it might not be strictly necessary, but it's a huge lever.
  - wolco 9y ago
    But it can buy things that help make a healthier lifestyle like foods with real value.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - nils-m-holm 9y ago
    There was a study in Sweden where people got a small amount of money (500skr, about $60) per month instead of a prescription of anti-depressants. Turns out the people who got the money were happier. Link: https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/studie-psykisk-ohalsa-blir-battre-med-pengar/ https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/studie-psykisk-ohalsa-blir... (only in Swedish, sorry!)
    - chmike 9y ago
      Did the study investigated the effect on a long run ?
      - nils-m-holm 9y ago
        The study followed the people who took part in it for nine months and did a follow-up survey six months after the end of the experiment. However, the follow-up results were only obtained when the report was already finished. Here is the complete report (in Swedish): http://ltblekinge.se/globalassets/forskning-och-utveckling/blekinge-kompetenscentrum/projekt/pengar-vanner-psykiska-problem/fou_rapport-pengar-slutversion-.pdf http://ltblekinge.se/globalassets/forskning-och-utveckling/b... They mention a smiliar study from the US, but here money was only one out of multiple factors: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229888823_Supported_socialization_for_people_with_psychiatric_disabilities_Lessons_from_a_randomized_controlled_trial https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229888823_Supported...
  - anon1253 9y ago
    "I'd rather cry in a Ferrari"
- pdfernhout 9y ago
  The right kind of work for the right person can be uplifting; for example on the joys of being a professional carpet cleaner: https://web.archive.org/web/20030807105050/http://www.unconventionalideas.com:80/bstcarer.html https://web.archive.org/web/20030807105050/http://www.unconv... "More than a few people agree the best career would be one which provides challenge, intellectual stimulation, and rewards for quality work. Many however, would be surprised to discover they can have all of those benefits and more in some of the unlikeliest of careers. Case in point: I'm a professional carpet cleaner. Some people think this is a second-rate career. I don't agree with them. Carpet cleaning gives me challenges, intellectual stimulation, and many other rewards. To prove this, permit me to walk you through one of my work days." On the other hand, much work isn't like that. See for example Disciplines Minds: http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ "The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professional's lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy." Or Bob Black: https://web.archive.org/web/20161031034600/http://whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html https://web.archive.org/web/20161031034600/http://whywork.or... "Work makes a mockery of freedom. The official line is that we all have rights and live in a democracy. Other unfortunates who aren't free like we are have to live in police states. These victims obey orders or else, no matter how arbitrary. The authorities keep them under regular surveillance. State bureaucrats control even the smaller details of everyday life. The officials who push them around are answerable only to higher-ups, public or private. Either way, dissent and disobedience are punished. Informers report regularly to the authorities. All this is supposed to be a very bad thing. And so it is, although it is nothing but a description of the modern workplace. ..." Or Mickey Z: "The Murdering of My Years: Artists and Activists Making Ends Meet" Yet, some jobs are better than others. Some families are healthier than others. Once can wonder what the difference is? For creating better organizations, last year I put together a reading list here: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations-Reading-List https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations... I also explore some related issues in terms of rethinking Princeton University (or any similar place) to be more health-promoting in this 2008 book-length essay I wrote: "Post-Scarcity Princeton, or, Reading between the lines of PAW for prospective Princeton students, or, the Health Risks of Heart Disease" http://pdfernhout.net/reading-between-the-lines.html http://pdfernhout.net/reading-between-the-lines.html Perhaps E.F. Schumacher put it best in "Buddhist Economics": http://www.centerforneweconomics.org/buddhist-economics http://www.centerforneweconomics.org/buddhist-economics "The Buddhist point of view takes the function of work to be at least threefold: to give man a chance to utilise and develop his faculties; to enable him to overcome his ego-centredness by joining with other people in a common task; and to bring forth the goods and services needed for a becoming existence. Again, the consequences that flow from this view are endless. To organise work in such a manner that it becomes meaningless, boring, stultifying, or nerve-racking for the worker would be little short of criminal; it would indicate a greater concern with goods than with people, an evil lack of compassion and a soul-destroying degree of attachment to the most primitive side of this worldly existence. Equally, to strive for leisure as an alternative to work would be considered a complete misunderstanding of one of the basic truths of human existence, namely that work and leisure are complementary parts of the same living process and cannot be separated without destroying the joy of work and the bliss of leisure." I agree otherwise though that in our society having money gives you more flexibility in the work you can choose --- as well as how you can address other needs in your life of the lives of those you care about when you are not working. Sometimes there is a tradeoff between money earned and job happiness -- but not always. There are also other ways to meet needs besides having a job in the exchange economy (or maybe someday a basic income). There is frugality to reduce wants and needs. There is subsistence production to make things yourself and have the joy of crafting or living off the land (how most humans have lived for most of the time). There is the gift economy of getting things for free (like information on the internet) and giving back to the community somehow (again, something humans have been going as part of tribes for a long time). There is the planned economy we participate in as citizens and where government allocates money hopefully to specific worthwhile social purposes (though the money is obtained from the citizenry under duress via taxes). Sadly, some people also turn to theft for whatever reasons. So, there are a variety of options, some better, some worse, depending on an individual's situation and what is feasible in a specific society.
rubicon33 9y ago
Here's what people who don't have depression, constantly think about depression: I just need X and then I won't be depressed! That's a NORMAL psychological process (not having something important, feeling negative about it). If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with. You're a human being who was unhappy that their situation in life was crappy. The litmus test for depression is when, even after obtaining X, your baseline resets to a depressed state as you were before you had X. So while obtaining X might bring some relief, you always return to a baseline happiness that is significantly lower than the average person.
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  > "If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with." Depends. There's a decent amount of evidence that exercise can help reduce episodes of depression, even clinical depression. If obtaining X is obtaining a healthier body, then there's a decent chance you can help to lift yourself out of a funk by getting it. However, there's comfort in believing that something can't be helped, so I won't blame you if you don't believe me.
  - rubicon33 9y ago
    To clarify my point... Exercise, good sleep, healthy diet, a social life, and a career, are some pre-requisites before you get to start talking about being CLINICALLY depressed. Situationally depressed, sure. But I'm making a distinction between someone who is depressed because they aren't meeting some basic needs (of which exercise is one), and the type of depression that persists DESPITE meeting these basic needs. By no means am I saying that a clinically depressed individual "cant be helped". There's nothing comforting about that thought at all. Quite the contrary, those types of people DO exist and have found relief visa vi standard modes of care (CBT, and medication).
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      > "Quite the contrary, those types of people DO exist and have found relief visa vi standard modes of care (CBT, and medication)." If a clinically depressed person tries both medication and exercise, and finds exercise helps them more, does that bother you? Are you suggesting that they can't have been clinically depressed?
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
> I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense It could be argued that you are voluntarily living with your parents because renting doesn't make financial sense. It's a trade-off. If you felt strongly enough about it you might potentially say something like "despite the financial trade-off being in favour of living with my parents, I find doing so makes me feel controlled and depressed, so I choose to [rent a room in a share-house / whatever other option might be available." I know, for me, my cyclic depression and suicidal ideation didn't lift until I started taking 1000+mg of magnesium as magnesium amino acid chelate and 8,000IU of vitamin D per day, despite having a relatively high-paying job and owning a (mortgaged) house. > but from my point of view I've barely grown up as an adult because the environment at home has never changed. With all the best of intentions and kindness: as an adult, it's probably up to you* to change that.
romwell 9y ago
> If it sounds entitled that I am complaining about free rent No, it does not, I'd positively go crazy if I were to stay with my parents, even though I love them and they've been giving me plenty of freedom and independence. I just need _my_ space. Heck, I didn't even let my grandma cook dinner when my grandparents flew from out of state. Get out of there, even if it means living with other roommates. You know it will make you feel better. No shame in complaining about free rent when that makes you unhappy. All your points are valid.

danharaj 9y ago

> So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? The job didn't cure my depression but the money let me do the things I need to do to be happy. I stayed with my parents for a bit when I got my first programming job. Moving out was one major positive thing for me. Money doesn't make you happy, but you only really have power over your life when you have money. That's the blunt truth. Most of us, even us relatively well off programmers are subordinated to the system that gives us money. My mental health would be in even better shape if I didn't have to consign 40 hours of my life per week to work. If one needed that time to get their life in order to cure their depression, it would be impossible unless they were rich, right? The way we talk about depression often ignores this crucial point.

lisper 9y ago
I can vouch for this. Money is not sufficient, and it might not be strictly necessary, but it's a huge lever.
- wolco 9y ago
  But it can buy things that help make a healthier lifestyle like foods with real value.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- nils-m-holm 9y ago
  There was a study in Sweden where people got a small amount of money (500skr, about $60) per month instead of a prescription of anti-depressants. Turns out the people who got the money were happier. Link: https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/studie-psykisk-ohalsa-blir-battre-med-pengar/ https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/studie-psykisk-ohalsa-blir... (only in Swedish, sorry!)
  - chmike 9y ago
    Did the study investigated the effect on a long run ?
    - nils-m-holm 9y ago
      The study followed the people who took part in it for nine months and did a follow-up survey six months after the end of the experiment. However, the follow-up results were only obtained when the report was already finished. Here is the complete report (in Swedish): http://ltblekinge.se/globalassets/forskning-och-utveckling/blekinge-kompetenscentrum/projekt/pengar-vanner-psykiska-problem/fou_rapport-pengar-slutversion-.pdf http://ltblekinge.se/globalassets/forskning-och-utveckling/b... They mention a smiliar study from the US, but here money was only one out of multiple factors: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229888823_Supported_socialization_for_people_with_psychiatric_disabilities_Lessons_from_a_randomized_controlled_trial https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229888823_Supported...
- anon1253 9y ago
  "I'd rather cry in a Ferrari"
pdfernhout 9y ago
The right kind of work for the right person can be uplifting; for example on the joys of being a professional carpet cleaner: https://web.archive.org/web/20030807105050/http://www.unconventionalideas.com:80/bstcarer.html https://web.archive.org/web/20030807105050/http://www.unconv... "More than a few people agree the best career would be one which provides challenge, intellectual stimulation, and rewards for quality work. Many however, would be surprised to discover they can have all of those benefits and more in some of the unlikeliest of careers. Case in point: I'm a professional carpet cleaner. Some people think this is a second-rate career. I don't agree with them. Carpet cleaning gives me challenges, intellectual stimulation, and many other rewards. To prove this, permit me to walk you through one of my work days." On the other hand, much work isn't like that. See for example Disciplines Minds: http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ "The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professional's lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy." Or Bob Black: https://web.archive.org/web/20161031034600/http://whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html https://web.archive.org/web/20161031034600/http://whywork.or... "Work makes a mockery of freedom. The official line is that we all have rights and live in a democracy. Other unfortunates who aren't free like we are have to live in police states. These victims obey orders or else, no matter how arbitrary. The authorities keep them under regular surveillance. State bureaucrats control even the smaller details of everyday life. The officials who push them around are answerable only to higher-ups, public or private. Either way, dissent and disobedience are punished. Informers report regularly to the authorities. All this is supposed to be a very bad thing. And so it is, although it is nothing but a description of the modern workplace. ..." Or Mickey Z: "The Murdering of My Years: Artists and Activists Making Ends Meet" Yet, some jobs are better than others. Some families are healthier than others. Once can wonder what the difference is? For creating better organizations, last year I put together a reading list here: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations-Reading-List https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations... I also explore some related issues in terms of rethinking Princeton University (or any similar place) to be more health-promoting in this 2008 book-length essay I wrote: "Post-Scarcity Princeton, or, Reading between the lines of PAW for prospective Princeton students, or, the Health Risks of Heart Disease" http://pdfernhout.net/reading-between-the-lines.html http://pdfernhout.net/reading-between-the-lines.html Perhaps E.F. Schumacher put it best in "Buddhist Economics": http://www.centerforneweconomics.org/buddhist-economics http://www.centerforneweconomics.org/buddhist-economics "The Buddhist point of view takes the function of work to be at least threefold: to give man a chance to utilise and develop his faculties; to enable him to overcome his ego-centredness by joining with other people in a common task; and to bring forth the goods and services needed for a becoming existence. Again, the consequences that flow from this view are endless. To organise work in such a manner that it becomes meaningless, boring, stultifying, or nerve-racking for the worker would be little short of criminal; it would indicate a greater concern with goods than with people, an evil lack of compassion and a soul-destroying degree of attachment to the most primitive side of this worldly existence. Equally, to strive for leisure as an alternative to work would be considered a complete misunderstanding of one of the basic truths of human existence, namely that work and leisure are complementary parts of the same living process and cannot be separated without destroying the joy of work and the bliss of leisure." I agree otherwise though that in our society having money gives you more flexibility in the work you can choose --- as well as how you can address other needs in your life of the lives of those you care about when you are not working. Sometimes there is a tradeoff between money earned and job happiness -- but not always. There are also other ways to meet needs besides having a job in the exchange economy (or maybe someday a basic income). There is frugality to reduce wants and needs. There is subsistence production to make things yourself and have the joy of crafting or living off the land (how most humans have lived for most of the time). There is the gift economy of getting things for free (like information on the internet) and giving back to the community somehow (again, something humans have been going as part of tribes for a long time). There is the planned economy we participate in as citizens and where government allocates money hopefully to specific worthwhile social purposes (though the money is obtained from the citizenry under duress via taxes). Sadly, some people also turn to theft for whatever reasons. So, there are a variety of options, some better, some worse, depending on an individual's situation and what is feasible in a specific society.

rubicon33 9y ago

Here's what people who don't have depression, constantly think about depression: I just need X and then I won't be depressed! That's a NORMAL psychological process (not having something important, feeling negative about it). If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with. You're a human being who was unhappy that their situation in life was crappy. The litmus test for depression is when, even after obtaining X, your baseline resets to a depressed state as you were before you had X. So while obtaining X might bring some relief, you always return to a baseline happiness that is significantly lower than the average person.

ZenoArrow 9y ago
> "If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with." Depends. There's a decent amount of evidence that exercise can help reduce episodes of depression, even clinical depression. If obtaining X is obtaining a healthier body, then there's a decent chance you can help to lift yourself out of a funk by getting it. However, there's comfort in believing that something can't be helped, so I won't blame you if you don't believe me.
- rubicon33 9y ago
  To clarify my point... Exercise, good sleep, healthy diet, a social life, and a career, are some pre-requisites before you get to start talking about being CLINICALLY depressed. Situationally depressed, sure. But I'm making a distinction between someone who is depressed because they aren't meeting some basic needs (of which exercise is one), and the type of depression that persists DESPITE meeting these basic needs. By no means am I saying that a clinically depressed individual "cant be helped". There's nothing comforting about that thought at all. Quite the contrary, those types of people DO exist and have found relief visa vi standard modes of care (CBT, and medication).
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > "Quite the contrary, those types of people DO exist and have found relief visa vi standard modes of care (CBT, and medication)." If a clinically depressed person tries both medication and exercise, and finds exercise helps them more, does that bother you? Are you suggesting that they can't have been clinically depressed?

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago

> I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense It could be argued that you are voluntarily living with your parents because renting doesn't make financial sense. It's a trade-off. If you felt strongly enough about it you might potentially say something like "despite the financial trade-off being in favour of living with my parents, I find doing so makes me feel controlled and depressed, so I choose to [rent a room in a share-house / whatever other option might be available." I know, for me, my cyclic depression and suicidal ideation didn't lift until I started taking 1000+mg of magnesium as magnesium amino acid chelate and 8,000IU of vitamin D per day, despite having a relatively high-paying job and owning a (mortgaged) house. > but from my point of view I've barely grown up as an adult because the environment at home has never changed. With all the best of intentions and kindness: as an adult, it's probably up to you* to change that.

romwell 9y ago

> If it sounds entitled that I am complaining about free rent No, it does not, I'd positively go crazy if I were to stay with my parents, even though I love them and they've been giving me plenty of freedom and independence. I just need _my_ space. Heck, I didn't even let my grandma cook dinner when my grandparents flew from out of state. Get out of there, even if it means living with other roommates. You know it will make you feel better. No shame in complaining about free rent when that makes you unhappy. All your points are valid.