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Tangential, but this psychologist argues that depression evolved as a behavioral shutdown mechanism to prevent humans from over-investing in tactics or behavior

Tangential, but this psychologist argues that depression evolved as a behavioral shutdown mechanism to prevent humans from over-investing in tactics or behaviors that did not yield any benefit (from a dopaminergic standpoint) -- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201604/the-behavioral-shutdown-theory-depression https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201604.... The reasoning is that we conserve energy by not pursuing "dead-ends". Naturally, this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically.

danharaj 9y ago
> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy. My episodes are far between now and, again, caused by things I don't have enough control over. What I'm saying is that we paper over the contradictions of the illusion of self determination peddled to us in rich Western societies by making depression seem like a personal, idiopathic problem.
- vinay427 9y ago
  Could you please rephrase or elaborate on this? I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly. > What I'm saying is that we paper over the contradictions of the illusion of self determination peddled to us in rich Western societies by making depression seem like a personal, idiopathic problem.
  - danharaj 9y ago
    There's a particular essay I would like to link to that would better articulate the point, but I can't find it so easily. I'll keep looking and respond when I do.
  - psyc 9y ago
    I think I can elaborate on how this usually works in my own life. The conditions that allow you to meet your various needs tend to be high-friction to get into, sticky once in them, and prone to ending abruptly. So, if I am in a situation where I have a job, a relationship, friends, and hobbies, then I have more than enough energy to maintain them. But when a chapter of my life comes to an end, it's like a game of musical chairs. And I'm just a little bit slow to find a seat. This slowness or non-resourcefulness in securing my next seat doesn't come anywhere near the symptoms of major depression. Suppose there's a layoff at work. I'm just a bit slower than others to catch on that I need to find another job. Just a bit less likely to talk to people and chase down opportunities. So I stay unemployed longer, along with the other compounded problems that can cause. After a long time not having my needs met, I get depressed, and eventually I'll be diagnosed with major depression and probably hospitalized. This is perhaps subtle, but I don't believe I'm especially prone to depression per se. When I'm in a stable life situation, I'm very positive, optimistic, and industrious. I seem to have it all together, and I do. What I'm prone to is being a little bit passive, and fairly introverted. That's not depression, and it doesn't cause any big problems if I'm only maintaining a full life. But jobs and romantic relationships can end abruptly. And with me it's always one or the other, and often both, that puts me in a situation where I have to act, be assertive, and secure that next seat. And sometimes I have adequate initiative to do that, and it's fine. If I don't though, one of these two things (job or romantic relationship ending suddenly) turns out to be the beginning of a slide. It's usually at least a year after the event that I start having symptoms, and by that time, 4 times out of 5 I'll wind up hospitalized. Obviously this is just one person's life, one person's experience with depression, and their own interpretation of the mechanisms.
- k__ 9y ago
  "I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy." My girlfriend works in a psychiartry for people with depression and she told me that it has nothing todo with success.
  - danharaj 9y ago
    The success didn't cure my depression. The success meant I had the independence and financial ability to address the problems in my life that caused my depression. Of course, the first step was going to a Psych and getting medication and therapy to start the process, but I have been able to manage my depression without either for quite some time now.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. The parent acknowledged that: people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors Folks who have brain wonkiness can't fix it by fixing other life problems. But people who are depressed because their life sucks absolutely can see their mood improve by fixing other problems.
    - meesterdude 9y ago
      > There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. This is not at all what the field of psychology has identified as the "general sources"
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        So enlighten me. What does psychology have to say about it?
        meesterdude 9y ago
        Far more than would be appropriate for a hacker news comment ;) I will share that it is both more complex than many believe - and also less mysterious. "it's chemical" gets overplayed, while our relationship with our emotions is often left unexamined. There's a great deal of interconnectedness and sometimes cause & effect become confused or are tightly coupled. In the end, we're still learning, and everyone is different.
- nexus2045 9y ago
  Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I feel monitored and treated like a idiotic teenager still, despite turning 29 this year) UNLESS I move to work in the States (paid more, have excuse to rent my own place). If it sounds entitled that I am complaining about free rent, it probably is, but from my point of view I've barely grown up as an adult because the environment at home has never changed.
  - danharaj 9y ago
    > So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? The job didn't cure my depression but the money let me do the things I need to do to be happy. I stayed with my parents for a bit when I got my first programming job. Moving out was one major positive thing for me. Money doesn't make you happy, but you only really have power over your life when you have money. That's the blunt truth. Most of us, even us relatively well off programmers are subordinated to the system that gives us money. My mental health would be in even better shape if I didn't have to consign 40 hours of my life per week to work. If one needed that time to get their life in order to cure their depression, it would be impossible unless they were rich, right? The way we talk about depression often ignores this crucial point.
    - lisper 9y ago
      I can vouch for this. Money is not sufficient, and it might not be strictly necessary, but it's a huge lever.
      - wolco 9y ago
        But it can buy things that help make a healthier lifestyle like foods with real value.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- zamalek 9y ago
  With a nomadic species (which has only very recently ended), depression would select against bad environments. You did what you were supposed to: change your environment.
DoreenMichele 9y ago
There seem to be two general responses to problems: anger or depression. Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good. But if your current crappy situation is the least worst answer you can come up with, depression is the lesser evil. You shouldn't rock the boat if there is zero upside and a lot of downside to doing so.
- insickness 9y ago
  It's been said that depression is anger turned inward.
  - racer-v 9y ago
    "Depression is anger without enthusiasm" - Steven Wright and/or Charles Saatchi
- padobson 9y ago
  This was the Eureka! moment of the article for me: What’s more, once the researchers took the effect of physical strength out of the equation, men and women were equally likely to be depressed. Humans, and men especially, are pre-disposed to solve social problems with violence. In cultures where violence is restrained or completely removed as a solution, it's not surprising that more men are depressed.
- Terr_ 9y ago
  > Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good. There's a Terry Pratchett quote which I like on this subject: > Granny Weatherwax was often angry. She considered it one of her strong points. Genuine anger was one of the world's greatest creative forces. But you had to learn how to control it. That didn't mean you let it trickle away. It meant you dammed it, carefully, let it develop a working head, let it drown whole valleys of the mind and then, just when the whole structure was about to collapse, opened a tiny pipeline at the base and let the iron-hard stream of wrath power the turbines of revenge.
sjg007 9y ago
I would've called that procrastination.
- asldfkweiorz 9y ago
  There is a massive difference between procrastination and depression. To be flippant, the difference between having changed clothes by 4pm or being still in your pyjama, trying to get out of bed and having breakfast.
zimablue 9y ago
I think it's too reductionist to assume that evolutionary drives are "solved" because survival is assured. Reproduction with an (genetically/physically/socially) fit partner and strong prospects for your children aren't solved at all, because they're an arms race. These also relate to the things that tend to make teenagers/young adults depressed.

danharaj 9y ago

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy. My episodes are far between now and, again, caused by things I don't have enough control over. What I'm saying is that we paper over the contradictions of the illusion of self determination peddled to us in rich Western societies by making depression seem like a personal, idiopathic problem.

vinay427 9y ago
Could you please rephrase or elaborate on this? I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly. > What I'm saying is that we paper over the contradictions of the illusion of self determination peddled to us in rich Western societies by making depression seem like a personal, idiopathic problem.
- danharaj 9y ago
  There's a particular essay I would like to link to that would better articulate the point, but I can't find it so easily. I'll keep looking and respond when I do.
- psyc 9y ago
  I think I can elaborate on how this usually works in my own life. The conditions that allow you to meet your various needs tend to be high-friction to get into, sticky once in them, and prone to ending abruptly. So, if I am in a situation where I have a job, a relationship, friends, and hobbies, then I have more than enough energy to maintain them. But when a chapter of my life comes to an end, it's like a game of musical chairs. And I'm just a little bit slow to find a seat. This slowness or non-resourcefulness in securing my next seat doesn't come anywhere near the symptoms of major depression. Suppose there's a layoff at work. I'm just a bit slower than others to catch on that I need to find another job. Just a bit less likely to talk to people and chase down opportunities. So I stay unemployed longer, along with the other compounded problems that can cause. After a long time not having my needs met, I get depressed, and eventually I'll be diagnosed with major depression and probably hospitalized. This is perhaps subtle, but I don't believe I'm especially prone to depression per se. When I'm in a stable life situation, I'm very positive, optimistic, and industrious. I seem to have it all together, and I do. What I'm prone to is being a little bit passive, and fairly introverted. That's not depression, and it doesn't cause any big problems if I'm only maintaining a full life. But jobs and romantic relationships can end abruptly. And with me it's always one or the other, and often both, that puts me in a situation where I have to act, be assertive, and secure that next seat. And sometimes I have adequate initiative to do that, and it's fine. If I don't though, one of these two things (job or romantic relationship ending suddenly) turns out to be the beginning of a slide. It's usually at least a year after the event that I start having symptoms, and by that time, 4 times out of 5 I'll wind up hospitalized. Obviously this is just one person's life, one person's experience with depression, and their own interpretation of the mechanisms.
k__ 9y ago
"I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy." My girlfriend works in a psychiartry for people with depression and she told me that it has nothing todo with success.
- danharaj 9y ago
  The success didn't cure my depression. The success meant I had the independence and financial ability to address the problems in my life that caused my depression. Of course, the first step was going to a Psych and getting medication and therapy to start the process, but I have been able to manage my depression without either for quite some time now.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. The parent acknowledged that: people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors Folks who have brain wonkiness can't fix it by fixing other life problems. But people who are depressed because their life sucks absolutely can see their mood improve by fixing other problems.
  - meesterdude 9y ago
    > There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. This is not at all what the field of psychology has identified as the "general sources"
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      So enlighten me. What does psychology have to say about it?
      - meesterdude 9y ago
        Far more than would be appropriate for a hacker news comment ;) I will share that it is both more complex than many believe - and also less mysterious. "it's chemical" gets overplayed, while our relationship with our emotions is often left unexamined. There's a great deal of interconnectedness and sometimes cause & effect become confused or are tightly coupled. In the end, we're still learning, and everyone is different.
nexus2045 9y ago
Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I feel monitored and treated like a idiotic teenager still, despite turning 29 this year) UNLESS I move to work in the States (paid more, have excuse to rent my own place). If it sounds entitled that I am complaining about free rent, it probably is, but from my point of view I've barely grown up as an adult because the environment at home has never changed.
- danharaj 9y ago
  > So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? The job didn't cure my depression but the money let me do the things I need to do to be happy. I stayed with my parents for a bit when I got my first programming job. Moving out was one major positive thing for me. Money doesn't make you happy, but you only really have power over your life when you have money. That's the blunt truth. Most of us, even us relatively well off programmers are subordinated to the system that gives us money. My mental health would be in even better shape if I didn't have to consign 40 hours of my life per week to work. If one needed that time to get their life in order to cure their depression, it would be impossible unless they were rich, right? The way we talk about depression often ignores this crucial point.
  - lisper 9y ago
    I can vouch for this. Money is not sufficient, and it might not be strictly necessary, but it's a huge lever.
    - wolco 9y ago
      But it can buy things that help make a healthier lifestyle like foods with real value.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
zamalek 9y ago
With a nomadic species (which has only very recently ended), depression would select against bad environments. You did what you were supposed to: change your environment.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

There seem to be two general responses to problems: anger or depression. Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good. But if your current crappy situation is the least worst answer you can come up with, depression is the lesser evil. You shouldn't rock the boat if there is zero upside and a lot of downside to doing so.

insickness 9y ago
It's been said that depression is anger turned inward.
- racer-v 9y ago
  "Depression is anger without enthusiasm" - Steven Wright and/or Charles Saatchi
padobson 9y ago
This was the Eureka! moment of the article for me: What’s more, once the researchers took the effect of physical strength out of the equation, men and women were equally likely to be depressed. Humans, and men especially, are pre-disposed to solve social problems with violence. In cultures where violence is restrained or completely removed as a solution, it's not surprising that more men are depressed.
Terr_ 9y ago
> Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good. There's a Terry Pratchett quote which I like on this subject: > Granny Weatherwax was often angry. She considered it one of her strong points. Genuine anger was one of the world's greatest creative forces. But you had to learn how to control it. That didn't mean you let it trickle away. It meant you dammed it, carefully, let it develop a working head, let it drown whole valleys of the mind and then, just when the whole structure was about to collapse, opened a tiny pipeline at the base and let the iron-hard stream of wrath power the turbines of revenge.

sjg007 9y ago

I would've called that procrastination.

asldfkweiorz 9y ago
There is a massive difference between procrastination and depression. To be flippant, the difference between having changed clothes by 4pm or being still in your pyjama, trying to get out of bed and having breakfast.

zimablue 9y ago

I think it's too reductionist to assume that evolutionary drives are "solved" because survival is assured. Reproduction with an (genetically/physically/socially) fit partner and strong prospects for your children aren't solved at all, because they're an arms race. These also relate to the things that tend to make teenagers/young adults depressed.