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They should have replaced it with Lightning Network, is amazingly fast and cheap and works on top of Bitcoin. I'm running a test node, this stuff really works!

by nvk 9y ago

They should have replaced it with Lightning Network, is amazingly fast and cheap and works on top of Bitcoin. I'm running a test node, this stuff really works! > Lightning is a decentralized network using smart contract functionality in the blockchain to enable instant payments across a network of participants. In case you are curious https://lightning.network https://lightning.network and another good resource here https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7pwna9/lightning_network_megathread/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7pwna9/lightning_n...

cortesoft 9y ago
They mention in the post that they are interested in lightning.
- nvk 9y ago
  Yes, maybe wishful-thinking but could have waited until a alternative was in place or at least have linked to a test implementation or something.
  - cortesoft 9y ago
    I think they had to act now because every single transaction was timing out (taking longer than an hour), meaning the service was effectively not working. They couldn't wait.
eropple 9y ago
They could also replace it with money, which one can readily and easily, through systems with well-understood protocols that are agreed upon by participants in those systems, exchange for goods and services. (Even the Lightning Network people don't think you should use it with money. Not that that's likely to be a problem, what with it being for Bitcoin and all. Stripe also doesn't support any other commodities as method of payment, and frankly if they did I'd hope they'd choose cattle before Bitcoin because we know that cattle is actually worth something.)
- nvk 9y ago
  You seem very confused about what money is.
  - luckydata 9y ago
    I don't see the confusion. Care to explain?
    - ujal 9y ago
      Countries and their economies collapsing now and then are not that rare.
      - asdasdas23123 9y ago
        Crypto's value collapsing now and then isn't rare either
        ujal 9y ago
        At the minimum you can't fake its value.
        tptacek 9y ago
        No, obviously you can. You're confusing the bits covered by a signature with the real-world interpretation of those bits.
        ujal 9y ago
        Well, good luck getting even the real inflation rate from a corrupt government.
        tptacek 9y ago
        Good luck buying a slice of pizza with bitcoin.
wyldfire 9y ago
The article does mention it. > We’re interested in what’s happening with Lightning and other proposals to enable faster payments. Please be careful about promoting LN. It's great tech, yes. > this stuff really works! * yes, but please don't actually use it with money yet. [1] [1] https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning#project-status https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning#project-status
- nvk 9y ago
  I think they are being over cautious (other implementations are not as concern), but yes still in testing. There are over 100 nodes, doing a bunch of transactions no money lost.
  - ActsJuvenile 9y ago
    100 nodes for a network worth hundreds of Billions of dollars: that's not over cautious, that's under cautious.
  - IncRnd 9y ago
    Has there been a threat model performed by a security person (not a developer)? Functional testing only goes so far and stops at the assumption that the code and design are correct.
- blhack 9y ago
  Plenty of people (myself included) have used lightning on mainnet successfully. People know the risks. It's just fun technology to play with.
  - duiker101 9y ago
    I actually don't know the risks. Have a short version?
    - richardwhiuk 9y ago
      You lose all the money you invested, and any money you had in progress, and nothing is worth anything and you have wasted a bunch of time.
prostoalex 9y ago
Sounds like a great startup opportunity to capitalize on a market underserved by Stripe.
- detaro 9y ago
  I'd guess a large part of the value of Stripe being in that market was "We're Stripe, we are a serious payment company, even if this stuff is a bit weird you can trust us to handle it" vs "hi, we are a BLOCKCHAIN startup nobody has ever heard of, trust us plz". That's hard to provide.
Havoc 9y ago
Bitcoin isn't working so now we're adding more complexity on top of it. What could possibly go wrong?
ActsJuvenile 9y ago
Lightning needs two additional transactions to load and unload payment channels, maximum transaction amount is 0.04 BTC, and it is at least 1 year away from maturity for large scale deployment. Current price bubble will bust long before that, and no one will care about LN anymore.
- Klathmon 9y ago
  A full-scale LN needs one transaction to get on the network, then loading and unloading can happen entirely on the network, as well as keeping the channel open indefinitely. Obviously getting to that point will take quite a lot of work, but there is no reason why you ever need to close a payment channel unless someone is trying to break the rules (and if that happens, you'll be happy, because you'll end up with all of the money in the channel, which will more than pay for the TX fees for 2 more transactions to close then reopen the channel).
  - underwires 9y ago
    But (correct me if I'm wrong) payment channels are connected to particular sets of recipients, but not necessarily any and all recipients. Your money is locked into that channel until you close it. You might need to open a different channel to reach your actual recipient.
    - exit 9y ago
      payments can be routed to other recipients if there is a path to them in the network.
    - PKop 9y ago
      This is why the Lightning network is something more than just payment channels. If you have 2 or more channels open on the network, you are a node that can have payments routed through. Same with trying to pay someone on the network whom you do not have an open channel with: the LN's purpose is to facilitate a network of channels. Certainly hubs will form, but there should be many of them, and if there's a path to your recipient, you don't need a dedicated channel with them.
nickporter 9y ago
If you want to use it on your website: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning-charge https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning-charge
nicpottier 9y ago
I'm actually really curious about this as well, as Stripe becoming a lightning node would be huge for the network as they have so many connectors, both to payers and payees. I kind of see the endgame of Bitcoin being this and I'm super bullish about BTC becoming viable as a payment platform again in a much more interesting way than the other competitors. BTC will have the best of all worlds if LTC actually ends up working on top of it. For anybody familiar with BTC the LTC papers is pretty easy reading: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/paper https://github.com/lightningnetwork/paper It is a super neat idea in all respects and could enable a whole new class of companies that provide these payment channels, all with very clear economic incentives not to suck while also requiring no trust on behalf of the users.
Meekro 9y ago
The lightning network will not work. Yes, you can run a node and connect to ACINQ's lightning hub (called endurance), and you can even buy coffee at https://starblocks.acinq.co https://starblocks.acinq.co, their lightning demo site, but that demo was designed to be misleading. The only reason it works is because the endurance hub has locked up its own funds in a channel with Starblocks -- and it's no surprise that it did, since both are owned by the same company. Let's say I wanted to set up a competing coffee shop, Starbricks (now with a brick of coffee in every cup!) I could certainly connect my own lightning node to the endurance lightning hub, but no one could pay me through that hub because the hub would first have to commit its own funds to its side of a payment channel with me. It won't do that, and I have no way to even ask it to, so I can't get paid unless every buyer opens a channel with me directly. And if they did that, it would be slower and more costly than just sending a Bitcoin transaction in the first place.
- Klathmon 9y ago
  >I could certainly connect my own lightning node to the endurance lightning hub, but no one could pay me through that hub because the hub would first have to commit its own funds to its side of a payment channel with me. It won't do that... "hubs" are incentivized to open channels, because they can charge fees for any transactions that go "through" them. Locking up some BTC for a short amount of time (roughly 3 days on average right now) to make some fees for routing transactions counterparty risk free doesn't seem like that bad of a deal... > ...and I have no way to even ask it to... The protocol has a way to "ask" for a new connection, you don't need to do anything but point your node at a funded address that is willing to accept new channels. >I can't get paid unless every buyer opens a channel with me directly. Or a single buyer opens a channel with you, that also has a channel open with that hub, and now you have a path to everyone and anyone that wants to buy coffee from you. Or maybe a single buyer opens a channel with you, that has a channel with another buyer, that has a channel with the hub.
  - Meekro 9y ago
    Could you give an example of how to do what you're saying with the current testnet lightning network? Let's say I've installed the client, connected to the endurance hub (or to someone who has a connection to it) .. okay, now what do I need to do so I can get paid through the hub? If I understood you correctly, you seem to be missing the fact that a hub has to separately lock up money with every node that it's connected to, if that node expects to be paid through the hub. That is an absolutely stunning amount of money for any popular lightning hub. Even if the hub is super-rich and super-benevolent, I have no way of asking it to lock up some funds on our channel, and the hub has no way of knowing that I want to accept payments through that route. If anyone tries to pay me, they'll just get a "no route found" error message even if a route exists, because that route is not funded at every edge. A single buyer opening a channel with both me and the hub doesn't help unless the hub has funded its side of the channnel with that buyer, AND the buyer has funded his side of the channel with my coffee shop. Now we have twice as much money locked up -- and I still don't see how the hub will decide with whom to lock up its own funds.
guiomie 9y ago
The documentation is really bad online, could you share a link to help me set up a test node?

by nvk 9y ago

cortesoft 9y ago

They mention in the post that they are interested in lightning.

nvk 9y ago
Yes, maybe wishful-thinking but could have waited until a alternative was in place or at least have linked to a test implementation or something.
- cortesoft 9y ago
  I think they had to act now because every single transaction was timing out (taking longer than an hour), meaning the service was effectively not working. They couldn't wait.

eropple 9y ago

They could also replace it with money, which one can readily and easily, through systems with well-understood protocols that are agreed upon by participants in those systems, exchange for goods and services. (Even the Lightning Network people don't think you should use it with money. Not that that's likely to be a problem, what with it being for Bitcoin and all. Stripe also doesn't support any other commodities as method of payment, and frankly if they did I'd hope they'd choose cattle before Bitcoin because we know that cattle is actually worth something.)

nvk 9y ago
You seem very confused about what money is.
- luckydata 9y ago
  I don't see the confusion. Care to explain?
  - ujal 9y ago
    Countries and their economies collapsing now and then are not that rare.
    - asdasdas23123 9y ago
      Crypto's value collapsing now and then isn't rare either
      - ujal 9y ago
        At the minimum you can't fake its value.
        tptacek 9y ago
        No, obviously you can. You're confusing the bits covered by a signature with the real-world interpretation of those bits.
        ujal 9y ago
        Well, good luck getting even the real inflation rate from a corrupt government.
        tptacek 9y ago
        Good luck buying a slice of pizza with bitcoin.

wyldfire 9y ago

The article does mention it. > We’re interested in what’s happening with Lightning and other proposals to enable faster payments. Please be careful about promoting LN. It's great tech, yes. > this stuff really works! * yes, but please don't actually use it with money yet. [1] [1] https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning#project-status https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning#project-status

nvk 9y ago
I think they are being over cautious (other implementations are not as concern), but yes still in testing. There are over 100 nodes, doing a bunch of transactions no money lost.
- ActsJuvenile 9y ago
  100 nodes for a network worth hundreds of Billions of dollars: that's not over cautious, that's under cautious.
- IncRnd 9y ago
  Has there been a threat model performed by a security person (not a developer)? Functional testing only goes so far and stops at the assumption that the code and design are correct.
blhack 9y ago
Plenty of people (myself included) have used lightning on mainnet successfully. People know the risks. It's just fun technology to play with.
- duiker101 9y ago
  I actually don't know the risks. Have a short version?
  - richardwhiuk 9y ago
    You lose all the money you invested, and any money you had in progress, and nothing is worth anything and you have wasted a bunch of time.

prostoalex 9y ago

Sounds like a great startup opportunity to capitalize on a market underserved by Stripe.

detaro 9y ago
I'd guess a large part of the value of Stripe being in that market was "We're Stripe, we are a serious payment company, even if this stuff is a bit weird you can trust us to handle it" vs "hi, we are a BLOCKCHAIN startup nobody has ever heard of, trust us plz". That's hard to provide.

Havoc 9y ago

Bitcoin isn't working so now we're adding more complexity on top of it. What could possibly go wrong?

ActsJuvenile 9y ago

Lightning needs two additional transactions to load and unload payment channels, maximum transaction amount is 0.04 BTC, and it is at least 1 year away from maturity for large scale deployment. Current price bubble will bust long before that, and no one will care about LN anymore.

Klathmon 9y ago
A full-scale LN needs one transaction to get on the network, then loading and unloading can happen entirely on the network, as well as keeping the channel open indefinitely. Obviously getting to that point will take quite a lot of work, but there is no reason why you ever need to close a payment channel unless someone is trying to break the rules (and if that happens, you'll be happy, because you'll end up with all of the money in the channel, which will more than pay for the TX fees for 2 more transactions to close then reopen the channel).
- underwires 9y ago
  But (correct me if I'm wrong) payment channels are connected to particular sets of recipients, but not necessarily any and all recipients. Your money is locked into that channel until you close it. You might need to open a different channel to reach your actual recipient.
  - exit 9y ago
    payments can be routed to other recipients if there is a path to them in the network.
  - PKop 9y ago
    This is why the Lightning network is something more than just payment channels. If you have 2 or more channels open on the network, you are a node that can have payments routed through. Same with trying to pay someone on the network whom you do not have an open channel with: the LN's purpose is to facilitate a network of channels. Certainly hubs will form, but there should be many of them, and if there's a path to your recipient, you don't need a dedicated channel with them.

nickporter 9y ago

If you want to use it on your website: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning-charge https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning-charge

nicpottier 9y ago

I'm actually really curious about this as well, as Stripe becoming a lightning node would be huge for the network as they have so many connectors, both to payers and payees. I kind of see the endgame of Bitcoin being this and I'm super bullish about BTC becoming viable as a payment platform again in a much more interesting way than the other competitors. BTC will have the best of all worlds if LTC actually ends up working on top of it. For anybody familiar with BTC the LTC papers is pretty easy reading: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/paper https://github.com/lightningnetwork/paper It is a super neat idea in all respects and could enable a whole new class of companies that provide these payment channels, all with very clear economic incentives not to suck while also requiring no trust on behalf of the users.

Meekro 9y ago

The lightning network will not work. Yes, you can run a node and connect to ACINQ's lightning hub (called endurance), and you can even buy coffee at https://starblocks.acinq.co https://starblocks.acinq.co, their lightning demo site, but that demo was designed to be misleading. The only reason it works is because the endurance hub has locked up its own funds in a channel with Starblocks -- and it's no surprise that it did, since both are owned by the same company. Let's say I wanted to set up a competing coffee shop, Starbricks (now with a brick of coffee in every cup!) I could certainly connect my own lightning node to the endurance lightning hub, but no one could pay me through that hub because the hub would first have to commit its own funds to its side of a payment channel with me. It won't do that, and I have no way to even ask it to, so I can't get paid unless every buyer opens a channel with me directly. And if they did that, it would be slower and more costly than just sending a Bitcoin transaction in the first place.

Klathmon 9y ago
>I could certainly connect my own lightning node to the endurance lightning hub, but no one could pay me through that hub because the hub would first have to commit its own funds to its side of a payment channel with me. It won't do that... "hubs" are incentivized to open channels, because they can charge fees for any transactions that go "through" them. Locking up some BTC for a short amount of time (roughly 3 days on average right now) to make some fees for routing transactions counterparty risk free doesn't seem like that bad of a deal... > ...and I have no way to even ask it to... The protocol has a way to "ask" for a new connection, you don't need to do anything but point your node at a funded address that is willing to accept new channels. >I can't get paid unless every buyer opens a channel with me directly. Or a single buyer opens a channel with you, that also has a channel open with that hub, and now you have a path to everyone and anyone that wants to buy coffee from you. Or maybe a single buyer opens a channel with you, that has a channel with another buyer, that has a channel with the hub.
- Meekro 9y ago
  Could you give an example of how to do what you're saying with the current testnet lightning network? Let's say I've installed the client, connected to the endurance hub (or to someone who has a connection to it) .. okay, now what do I need to do so I can get paid through the hub? If I understood you correctly, you seem to be missing the fact that a hub has to separately lock up money with every node that it's connected to, if that node expects to be paid through the hub. That is an absolutely stunning amount of money for any popular lightning hub. Even if the hub is super-rich and super-benevolent, I have no way of asking it to lock up some funds on our channel, and the hub has no way of knowing that I want to accept payments through that route. If anyone tries to pay me, they'll just get a "no route found" error message even if a route exists, because that route is not funded at every edge. A single buyer opening a channel with both me and the hub doesn't help unless the hub has funded its side of the channnel with that buyer, AND the buyer has funded his side of the channel with my coffee shop. Now we have twice as much money locked up -- and I still don't see how the hub will decide with whom to lock up its own funds.

guiomie 9y ago

The documentation is really bad online, could you share a link to help me set up a test node?