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While claiming the principles of Liberty for yourself (deciding what kind of "utopia" you want to be part of), would you deny that choice to others? This is pe

While claiming the principles of Liberty for yourself (deciding what kind of "utopia" you want to be part of), would you deny that choice to others? This is perhaps what separates libertarians from liberals, conservatives, socialists, etc.: we simply do not deny others the liberty we claim for ourselves. If a monetary system that cannot be debased/controlled by government is available, does that not allow you to elect to create and/or join a community of similar beliefs? Or, would you prefer that I (or someone else) be able to gain control of your government, and then choose to make it (financially) impossible for you to choose your associations and/or behaviors? Or, perhaps: does your "utopia" require others to fund it, in order for it to work? This is, unfortunately, the case with most people's personal beliefs. They require the non-consensual forced effort of others to succeed...

jgh 9y ago
> This is perhaps what separates libertarians from liberals, conservatives, socialists, etc.: we simply do not deny others the liberty we claim for ourselves. Oh cut the self-aggrandizing horse-shit. Libertarianism is 100% about denying others liberty while taking as much as you can for yourself. > If a monetary system that cannot be debased/controlled by government is available, does that not allow you to elect to create and/or join a community of similar beliefs? Or, would you prefer that I (or someone else) be able to gain control of your government, and then choose to make it (financially) impossible for you to choose your associations and/or behaviors? If you are under the impression that somehow cryptocurrency can't be controlled by governments, you're in for a bad time. > Or, perhaps: does your "utopia" require others to fund it, in order for it to work? This is, unfortunately, the case with most people's personal beliefs. They require the non-consensual forced effort of others to succeed There is no utopia. It's a naive pipe dream. Please don't project straw men onto me.
- pjkundert 9y ago
  I think we probably agree on most things re: utopia, cryptocurrencies vs. gov't control. I'm not sure about your claim that valuing liberty for myself and others is about "taking as much as you can for yourself", though...
  - platz 9y ago
    you guys, what even is "liberty". if in in fact you are referring to competing for resources in a zero-sum game, that is a different thing than say, Free Speech.
simias 9y ago
I hope one day we'll perfect space travel and be able to colonize the galaxy. Then for quite a while we'll have so many planets and resources that every human being could destroy a planet every day and we'll still have no fear of running out. In the unlikely situation where this happens and I'm alive to experience it, I'll be the most extremist libertarian you've ever seen. "You don't like this? Just create your own community on some planet a few light years from there and do your thing." Communists colonize their own little solar system, anarchists cohabitate in an other, fascists create the Germania consortium. But that's not the world we live in currently. We're all stuck on the same speck of dust in the middle of an absurdly large ocean of empty space. So yeah, for now unfortunately it means we have to play nice with each other and compromise. Whether you like it or not you're part of a society.
- VVyattPrentice 9y ago
  the war wasn't about slavery. it was about planets rights. /s
sethrin 9y ago
What libertarians deny is reality itself. Government is defined as a monopoly on violence. Non-coercive government is a contradiction in terms.
- pjkundert 9y ago
  What straw-man libertarians deny... what real libertarians do is agree with bounds on government power that respect the liberty of all,to as great an extent as possible while protecting the community from attack.
  - VVyattPrentice 9y ago
    So slavery? cool? You're cool with slavery? Just want to be sure we're using the same definition of liberty here.
    - dang 9y ago
      Could you please not use HN for ideological battle? That's destructive of what the site is for, so we eventually have to moderate accounts that do it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 9y ago
  > What libertarians deny is reality itself. Please keep generic ideological bickering off HN. It's always the same, therefore never interesting in the local sense of the word. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 9y ago
Please don't use HN for generic ideological arguments, even when—especially when—other commenters are already tilting in that direction. It inevitably takes HN threads into black holes that are always the same, and therefore always off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jgh 9y ago

> This is perhaps what separates libertarians from liberals, conservatives, socialists, etc.: we simply do not deny others the liberty we claim for ourselves. Oh cut the self-aggrandizing horse-shit. Libertarianism is 100% about denying others liberty while taking as much as you can for yourself. > If a monetary system that cannot be debased/controlled by government is available, does that not allow you to elect to create and/or join a community of similar beliefs? Or, would you prefer that I (or someone else) be able to gain control of your government, and then choose to make it (financially) impossible for you to choose your associations and/or behaviors? If you are under the impression that somehow cryptocurrency can't be controlled by governments, you're in for a bad time. > Or, perhaps: does your "utopia" require others to fund it, in order for it to work? This is, unfortunately, the case with most people's personal beliefs. They require the non-consensual forced effort of others to succeed There is no utopia. It's a naive pipe dream. Please don't project straw men onto me.

pjkundert 9y ago
I think we probably agree on most things re: utopia, cryptocurrencies vs. gov't control. I'm not sure about your claim that valuing liberty for myself and others is about "taking as much as you can for yourself", though...
- platz 9y ago
  you guys, what even is "liberty". if in in fact you are referring to competing for resources in a zero-sum game, that is a different thing than say, Free Speech.

simias 9y ago

I hope one day we'll perfect space travel and be able to colonize the galaxy. Then for quite a while we'll have so many planets and resources that every human being could destroy a planet every day and we'll still have no fear of running out. In the unlikely situation where this happens and I'm alive to experience it, I'll be the most extremist libertarian you've ever seen. "You don't like this? Just create your own community on some planet a few light years from there and do your thing." Communists colonize their own little solar system, anarchists cohabitate in an other, fascists create the Germania consortium. But that's not the world we live in currently. We're all stuck on the same speck of dust in the middle of an absurdly large ocean of empty space. So yeah, for now unfortunately it means we have to play nice with each other and compromise. Whether you like it or not you're part of a society.

VVyattPrentice 9y ago
the war wasn't about slavery. it was about planets rights. /s

sethrin 9y ago

What libertarians deny is reality itself. Government is defined as a monopoly on violence. Non-coercive government is a contradiction in terms.

pjkundert 9y ago
What straw-man libertarians deny... what real libertarians do is agree with bounds on government power that respect the liberty of all,to as great an extent as possible while protecting the community from attack.
- VVyattPrentice 9y ago
  So slavery? cool? You're cool with slavery? Just want to be sure we're using the same definition of liberty here.
  - dang 9y ago
    Could you please not use HN for ideological battle? That's destructive of what the site is for, so we eventually have to moderate accounts that do it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 9y ago
> What libertarians deny is reality itself. Please keep generic ideological bickering off HN. It's always the same, therefore never interesting in the local sense of the word. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dang 9y ago

Please don't use HN for generic ideological arguments, even when—especially when—other commenters are already tilting in that direction. It inevitably takes HN threads into black holes that are always the same, and therefore always off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html