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Building a Distributed Log from Scratch: Sketching a New System

140 points by tylertreat 9y ago

fapjacks 9y ago
I am usually skeptical of links to blog posts people add to HN themselves because I'm skeptical of self-promotion more generally, but this series of posts is actually really insightful. I enjoyed reading it and have been passing it to some friends of mine.
sagichmal 9y ago
This is interesting but the constant reference to NATS is more than a little irritating. It's one player among many in the space, and it's decisions aren't particularly notable. I would have loved to read something that was honestly "from first principles" rather than a pivot from the NATS architecture or whatever.
- tylertreat 9y ago
  To be fair, part one of the series explains this: > we will focus on what it takes to build something like this using Kafka and NATS Streaming as case studies of sorts—Kafka because of its ubiquity, NATS Streaming because it’s something with which I have personal experience.
AndyNemmity 9y ago
I am in the process of building a system like this, and a question I've been asked is, why the need for a message broker at all. It's been a little difficult to justify once I really start to think about it. Why not just set everything into essentially an S3 bucket, and then process off of it. What's the benefit of a broker in between them really?
- TheCowboy 9y ago
  It depends. What is your use case? If you mean this project specifically, part one says "you will probably never need to build something like this yourself (nor should you)". Dumping everything into an S3 bucket may be perfectly fine and even efficient for some projects. I personally don't see myself wanting to use S3 buckets for transmitting messages between multiple different systems with different purposes. If you have a lot of different services producing data that multiple services will consume, then a pub/sub system can simplify things. Some systems, like Kafka, also have added redundancy/scaling benefits.
  - AndyNemmity 9y ago
    Use case is a Cloud, taking all audit/log data, wrapping in metadata, and then placing it in a location which then needs analytics available on. Currently this is done for the control plane by just loading them directly into Elasticsearch. Increasing the availability for all users, the consideration is, does a pub/sub add anything that just throwing the data directly into an s3 like bucket (swift in our case). I just assumed it did. Everyone does it. Scale, decoupling the sender from the receiver... But... I mean, why? What's the point of an additional hop, and another thing to manage. If your source is already wrapping metadata, and perhaps putting it into a structure, what is the value of a pub/sub there? If you can load it to the pub/sub, you can load it to the s3 bucket in the same manner.
    - amarkov 9y ago
      Partitioning the S3 bucket scheme is terribly complicated. The senders have to know exactly how every receiver is partitioned, so they can adopt a compatible partitioning scheme when writing to S3. And the receivers have to know exactly how the senders are partitioned, so they can divvy up incoming data appropriately.

140 points by tylertreat 9y ago

I am usually skeptical of links to blog posts people add to HN themselves because I'm skeptical of self-promotion more generally, but this series of posts is actually really insightful. I enjoyed reading it and have been passing it to some friends of mine.

sagichmal 9y ago

This is interesting but the constant reference to NATS is more than a little irritating. It's one player among many in the space, and it's decisions aren't particularly notable. I would have loved to read something that was honestly "from first principles" rather than a pivot from the NATS architecture or whatever.

tylertreat 9y ago
To be fair, part one of the series explains this: > we will focus on what it takes to build something like this using Kafka and NATS Streaming as case studies of sorts—Kafka because of its ubiquity, NATS Streaming because it’s something with which I have personal experience.

AndyNemmity 9y ago

I am in the process of building a system like this, and a question I've been asked is, why the need for a message broker at all. It's been a little difficult to justify once I really start to think about it. Why not just set everything into essentially an S3 bucket, and then process off of it. What's the benefit of a broker in between them really?

TheCowboy 9y ago
It depends. What is your use case? If you mean this project specifically, part one says "you will probably never need to build something like this yourself (nor should you)". Dumping everything into an S3 bucket may be perfectly fine and even efficient for some projects. I personally don't see myself wanting to use S3 buckets for transmitting messages between multiple different systems with different purposes. If you have a lot of different services producing data that multiple services will consume, then a pub/sub system can simplify things. Some systems, like Kafka, also have added redundancy/scaling benefits.
- AndyNemmity 9y ago
  Use case is a Cloud, taking all audit/log data, wrapping in metadata, and then placing it in a location which then needs analytics available on. Currently this is done for the control plane by just loading them directly into Elasticsearch. Increasing the availability for all users, the consideration is, does a pub/sub add anything that just throwing the data directly into an s3 like bucket (swift in our case). I just assumed it did. Everyone does it. Scale, decoupling the sender from the receiver... But... I mean, why? What's the point of an additional hop, and another thing to manage. If your source is already wrapping metadata, and perhaps putting it into a structure, what is the value of a pub/sub there? If you can load it to the pub/sub, you can load it to the s3 bucket in the same manner.
  - amarkov 9y ago
    Partitioning the S3 bucket scheme is terribly complicated. The senders have to know exactly how every receiver is partitioned, so they can adopt a compatible partitioning scheme when writing to S3. And the receivers have to know exactly how the senders are partitioned, so they can divvy up incoming data appropriately.