6 ms·

I honestly hope the utopian dream is smashed in the cryptocurrency community. It's not the kind of "utopia" I want to be a part of. I like the technical ideas

by jgh 9y ago

I honestly hope the utopian dream is smashed in the cryptocurrency community. It's not the kind of "utopia" I want to be a part of. I like the technical ideas behind cryptocurrency, but the terrible political views are off-putting.

tenaciousDaniel 9y ago
I'm legitimately interested in cryptocurrency; I think it's a really cool idea. So what I'm hoping for is that everything goes as horribly wrong as possible, the price tanks, everyone's dreams are smashed, and all the bullshit takes disappear. At that point, the people who are interested in building something worthwhile will be the only ones who remain, and we can work in peace.
- jgh 9y ago
  I'm sure that there will be some kind of reckoning at some point. Who knows though, maybe prices will just stabilize to the point that it becomes another boring equity.
- adwhit 9y ago
  Is there an altcoin which is indefinitely and exponentionally inflationary? Such a coin would not have the gold-rush/ponzi characteristics which bitcoin has, and there wouldn't be a such huge incentive to mine new coins so hopefully it would avoid the incredibly wasteful mining arms race. But no one would get rich quick, so it would probably never take off in the first place.
  - pjkundert 9y ago
    I think the concept you're looking for is "value stable". Right now we're seeing the tip of the iceberg of potential cryptocurrencies. Pretty much only token-based (ie. non-ledger) based currencies, where we need global BFT consensus to track the current position of every single coin. This is crazy. And, as it turns out, unnecessary (see: Holochain). When the iceberg capsizes (as Git capsized the CASE industry), globally consistent ledger-based value-stable currencies based on peer-to-peer co-signed personal blockchains will supplant these unnecessary globally consistent token based ... things. (Do I really care that you just slid a nickel across the table to someone? Nope). Same with crazy Turing-complete globally consistent VMs implementing Smart Contract languages. Not necessary. You are correct -- value-stable currencies won't have anyone getting rich quick. But, when every sub-saharan goat herder and neighbourhood kid with a collection of trading cards can independently monetize his/her wealth into a value-stable currency, we'll see the face ripped off of the global Fiat monetary systems...
  - tenaciousDaniel 9y ago
    I know of only two: Tether and Dai https://tether.to/ https://tether.to/ https://makerdao.com https://makerdao.com
- hectorr1 9y ago
  When did you find out about cryptocurrency? Because this has already happened in 2014-2016. It happened before that too. Each time the speculative bubble rises, it is being driven at first by improvements to the tech and/or ecosystem. Then it gets a life of its own, goes crazy, and runs out of gas. But along the way, more people learn about it and decide they care enough to continue the project. Even if you are only in it for the money, the tech matters. Because the closer you are to the tech, the better you understand where the long term value will be, and when the price has outrun that value.
  - tenaciousDaniel 9y ago
    I really got into it in a little over a year ago. I first heard about it about 4 years ago though. I'm sure there are ebbs and flows, but this time around does seem different, given that my tech-illiterate family members were asking me about it over the holidays. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it seems inescapable.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  Because thats how we got such perfectly tuned markets like housing, stocks, international trade, debt. They never break down after one big crisis that takes lots of people down with them.
pjkundert 9y ago
While claiming the principles of Liberty for yourself (deciding what kind of "utopia" you want to be part of), would you deny that choice to others? This is perhaps what separates libertarians from liberals, conservatives, socialists, etc.: we simply do not deny others the liberty we claim for ourselves. If a monetary system that cannot be debased/controlled by government is available, does that not allow you to elect to create and/or join a community of similar beliefs? Or, would you prefer that I (or someone else) be able to gain control of your government, and then choose to make it (financially) impossible for you to choose your associations and/or behaviors? Or, perhaps: does your "utopia" require others to fund it, in order for it to work? This is, unfortunately, the case with most people's personal beliefs. They require the non-consensual forced effort of others to succeed...
- jgh 9y ago
  > This is perhaps what separates libertarians from liberals, conservatives, socialists, etc.: we simply do not deny others the liberty we claim for ourselves. Oh cut the self-aggrandizing horse-shit. Libertarianism is 100% about denying others liberty while taking as much as you can for yourself. > If a monetary system that cannot be debased/controlled by government is available, does that not allow you to elect to create and/or join a community of similar beliefs? Or, would you prefer that I (or someone else) be able to gain control of your government, and then choose to make it (financially) impossible for you to choose your associations and/or behaviors? If you are under the impression that somehow cryptocurrency can't be controlled by governments, you're in for a bad time. > Or, perhaps: does your "utopia" require others to fund it, in order for it to work? This is, unfortunately, the case with most people's personal beliefs. They require the non-consensual forced effort of others to succeed There is no utopia. It's a naive pipe dream. Please don't project straw men onto me.
  - pjkundert 9y ago
    I think we probably agree on most things re: utopia, cryptocurrencies vs. gov't control. I'm not sure about your claim that valuing liberty for myself and others is about "taking as much as you can for yourself", though...
runeks 9y ago
> I like the technical ideas behind cryptocurrency, but the terrible political views are off-putting. Which political views? I read the article and only saw a view on money, not politics. What’s being criticized is the very idea that money should involve politics. The argument is that we should be as free to choose which kind of money we use as we are to choose which kind of car we use. There should be no law giving competitive advantage — in the form of legal tender law, and the absence of choosing which numeraire to use as the basis for calculating capital gains tax — to currencies issued by central banks with whom the government has an account. It’s entirely possible to deliver an argument for the separation of government and money without criticizing either in and of itself. It’s very much like arguing for the separation of church and state without saying anything negative about either of the two in isolation.
- jgh 9y ago
  I wasn't referencing the article. There are a lot of people in the cryptocurrency community (spend some time in telegram rooms, reading blog posts, etc) that push a very libertarian/anarcho-capitalist agenda. I obviously don't think anything is wrong with using alternative currencies, but I'm not sure that separation of currency and state can happen the same way separation of church and state has. Even if the government doesn't control the issuance of currency they will undoubtedly have an outsized influence on whatever currency they choose to support.
  - runeks 9y ago
    > I obviously don't think anything is wrong with using alternative currencies, but I'm not sure that separation of currency and state can happen the same way separation of church and state has. Even if the government doesn't control the issuance of currency they will undoubtedly have an outsized influence on whatever currency they choose to support. I honestly don’t see the big difference: the people, by voting on representatives, choose both which religions and means of payment the government accepts (assuming a democracy, of course).
arisAlexis 9y ago
are you talking about rotten bank bailouts? yes terrible policies

by jgh 9y ago

tenaciousDaniel 9y ago

I'm legitimately interested in cryptocurrency; I think it's a really cool idea. So what I'm hoping for is that everything goes as horribly wrong as possible, the price tanks, everyone's dreams are smashed, and all the bullshit takes disappear. At that point, the people who are interested in building something worthwhile will be the only ones who remain, and we can work in peace.

jgh 9y ago
I'm sure that there will be some kind of reckoning at some point. Who knows though, maybe prices will just stabilize to the point that it becomes another boring equity.
adwhit 9y ago
Is there an altcoin which is indefinitely and exponentionally inflationary? Such a coin would not have the gold-rush/ponzi characteristics which bitcoin has, and there wouldn't be a such huge incentive to mine new coins so hopefully it would avoid the incredibly wasteful mining arms race. But no one would get rich quick, so it would probably never take off in the first place.
- pjkundert 9y ago
  I think the concept you're looking for is "value stable". Right now we're seeing the tip of the iceberg of potential cryptocurrencies. Pretty much only token-based (ie. non-ledger) based currencies, where we need global BFT consensus to track the current position of every single coin. This is crazy. And, as it turns out, unnecessary (see: Holochain). When the iceberg capsizes (as Git capsized the CASE industry), globally consistent ledger-based value-stable currencies based on peer-to-peer co-signed personal blockchains will supplant these unnecessary globally consistent token based ... things. (Do I really care that you just slid a nickel across the table to someone? Nope). Same with crazy Turing-complete globally consistent VMs implementing Smart Contract languages. Not necessary. You are correct -- value-stable currencies won't have anyone getting rich quick. But, when every sub-saharan goat herder and neighbourhood kid with a collection of trading cards can independently monetize his/her wealth into a value-stable currency, we'll see the face ripped off of the global Fiat monetary systems...
- tenaciousDaniel 9y ago
  I know of only two: Tether and Dai https://tether.to/ https://tether.to/ https://makerdao.com https://makerdao.com
hectorr1 9y ago
When did you find out about cryptocurrency? Because this has already happened in 2014-2016. It happened before that too. Each time the speculative bubble rises, it is being driven at first by improvements to the tech and/or ecosystem. Then it gets a life of its own, goes crazy, and runs out of gas. But along the way, more people learn about it and decide they care enough to continue the project. Even if you are only in it for the money, the tech matters. Because the closer you are to the tech, the better you understand where the long term value will be, and when the price has outrun that value.
- tenaciousDaniel 9y ago
  I really got into it in a little over a year ago. I first heard about it about 4 years ago though. I'm sure there are ebbs and flows, but this time around does seem different, given that my tech-illiterate family members were asking me about it over the holidays. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it seems inescapable.
conanbatt 9y ago
Because thats how we got such perfectly tuned markets like housing, stocks, international trade, debt. They never break down after one big crisis that takes lots of people down with them.

pjkundert 9y ago

While claiming the principles of Liberty for yourself (deciding what kind of "utopia" you want to be part of), would you deny that choice to others? This is perhaps what separates libertarians from liberals, conservatives, socialists, etc.: we simply do not deny others the liberty we claim for ourselves. If a monetary system that cannot be debased/controlled by government is available, does that not allow you to elect to create and/or join a community of similar beliefs? Or, would you prefer that I (or someone else) be able to gain control of your government, and then choose to make it (financially) impossible for you to choose your associations and/or behaviors? Or, perhaps: does your "utopia" require others to fund it, in order for it to work? This is, unfortunately, the case with most people's personal beliefs. They require the non-consensual forced effort of others to succeed...

jgh 9y ago
> This is perhaps what separates libertarians from liberals, conservatives, socialists, etc.: we simply do not deny others the liberty we claim for ourselves. Oh cut the self-aggrandizing horse-shit. Libertarianism is 100% about denying others liberty while taking as much as you can for yourself. > If a monetary system that cannot be debased/controlled by government is available, does that not allow you to elect to create and/or join a community of similar beliefs? Or, would you prefer that I (or someone else) be able to gain control of your government, and then choose to make it (financially) impossible for you to choose your associations and/or behaviors? If you are under the impression that somehow cryptocurrency can't be controlled by governments, you're in for a bad time. > Or, perhaps: does your "utopia" require others to fund it, in order for it to work? This is, unfortunately, the case with most people's personal beliefs. They require the non-consensual forced effort of others to succeed There is no utopia. It's a naive pipe dream. Please don't project straw men onto me.
- pjkundert 9y ago
  I think we probably agree on most things re: utopia, cryptocurrencies vs. gov't control. I'm not sure about your claim that valuing liberty for myself and others is about "taking as much as you can for yourself", though...

runeks 9y ago

> I like the technical ideas behind cryptocurrency, but the terrible political views are off-putting. Which political views? I read the article and only saw a view on money, not politics. What’s being criticized is the very idea that money should involve politics. The argument is that we should be as free to choose which kind of money we use as we are to choose which kind of car we use. There should be no law giving competitive advantage — in the form of legal tender law, and the absence of choosing which numeraire to use as the basis for calculating capital gains tax — to currencies issued by central banks with whom the government has an account. It’s entirely possible to deliver an argument for the separation of government and money without criticizing either in and of itself. It’s very much like arguing for the separation of church and state without saying anything negative about either of the two in isolation.

jgh 9y ago
I wasn't referencing the article. There are a lot of people in the cryptocurrency community (spend some time in telegram rooms, reading blog posts, etc) that push a very libertarian/anarcho-capitalist agenda. I obviously don't think anything is wrong with using alternative currencies, but I'm not sure that separation of currency and state can happen the same way separation of church and state has. Even if the government doesn't control the issuance of currency they will undoubtedly have an outsized influence on whatever currency they choose to support.
- runeks 9y ago
  > I obviously don't think anything is wrong with using alternative currencies, but I'm not sure that separation of currency and state can happen the same way separation of church and state has. Even if the government doesn't control the issuance of currency they will undoubtedly have an outsized influence on whatever currency they choose to support. I honestly don’t see the big difference: the people, by voting on representatives, choose both which religions and means of payment the government accepts (assuming a democracy, of course).

arisAlexis 9y ago

are you talking about rotten bank bailouts? yes terrible policies