5 ms·

I'm sure I'll get some flak for saying this on HN, but I would encourage everyone not to take a contracting gig unless you're absolutely desperate for work. I d

I'm sure I'll get some flak for saying this on HN, but I would encourage everyone not to take a contracting gig unless you're absolutely desperate for work. I don't believe most people are cut out to properly negotiate the pay for a contracting position (in that they do not know how to properly account for all of the benefits they are not getting). And by taking a contracting position you are basically encouraging the contracting and gig economy to grow, and allowing employers to take even more advantage of their employees by baiting them with a carrot on a stick. You can argue the gig economy allows flexibility for the worker, which is true to some extent, but I can't imagine this flexibility wouldn't cause a huge amount of stress in the day to day lives of people who need gainful employment to support someone else (children, elderly parents, etc.) Look, I can't claim to have been a contractor for any significant length of time, so maybe I'm talking out my ass and every freelancer here can tell me so. But the fact is the american people have let employers have too much power for far too long, and encouraging people to take contract work seems to me like just another step in the wrong direction of giving these companies even more power, and then everyone is worse off for it.

NicoJuicy 9y ago
Why should HN disagree with you? I completely agree, I sometimes have problems asking for the right amount of money. And I do it more than the average. It's hard to demand what you want
- Ancalagon 9y ago
  I don't think HN should disagree with me. In fact I think everyone on HN should repeat what I said to everyone they know . Don't take contract work, unless you're absolutely desperate. The reason I was being so defensive though was because I know there are a lot of freelancers on HN. I'm not trying to bash their lifestyles or work choices, just pointing out that taking this kind of work (whether as a software engineer or as a janitor) sets a precedent that encourages employers to further view their employees as red numbers on a spreadsheet to be marginalized and reduced. But thank you for the comment, I get somewhat heated when this topic comes up because it seems like such an obviously bad deal for so many people.
  - kaybe 9y ago
    I wonder how country-specific your advice is.
    - Ancalagon 9y ago
      Pretty specific to america. Most other countries don't tie healthcare (and a myriad other social services and benefits) and gainful employment to one another.
      - TimPC 9y ago
        Contract work in Toronto was pretty good, especially with clients from markets with higher cost structures. You still generally want healthcare coverage on-top of the public system in Canada, but you can often get a better rate through either small business groups or an alumni association or other such alternatives. The downside of contract is you work some unpaid hours on the business itself (although you bill every hour you work for a client if you bill hourly, or use judgement on how much to work if you bill weekly). The pay tends to range from above market to way above market but some of that is absorbed by benefits. Taxes tend to be potentially lower in Canada for contract work in Canada depending on your structuring. Trudeau did attempt to change that with a policy to alter how holding money within corporations works so the way you achieve lower taxes does put some of your income at risk of some version of this policy eventually passing.
humanrebar 9y ago
Contract work should be fine. I frankly blame the American government for tying healthcare to not just employment status but particular employer so tightly for so long. It is frankly ridiculous and disgraceful that our political leaders are not held to account for this. The early Tea Party was supposed to be organized around a theme of "stop the nonsense and denial!" with respect to these kinds of problems, but it was quickly corrupted by the ignorant and by the people who were hoping to find ignorance. Rather than turning energy and community action into positive change, they were derided and stymied. So now we have Trump who is basically nonsense and denial personified. Not that Obamacare did anything to get us off the employer healthcare crutch. In that respect, things seem to have just gotten worse. And I'm a person that doesn't think everything needs to be political! It's just hard to get around the fact that American is grossly misgoverned here. But the American voter can't bring itself to vote on real issues instead of rooting for its political team. This gives me little hope that we'll ever get the 2/3 to 3/4 consensus we'll need to practically fix this (1). (1) Even if we don't need that many people agreeing to pass legislation, I think things like reforming entire sectors of the economy and employer/employee relationships requires very broad support to be both fair and lasting. Having 51% of voters pee in the cornflakes of the other 49% doesn't get us anywhere. Hopefully that's clear given American politics since 2006 or so. EDIT: To tie this back to contract work, contract work is great and provides needed dynamism and small-business know-how to the economy. But it's very risky. One needs an independent source of income (other investments, working professional spouse) or a big pile of capital so you can weather ups and downs, take health sabbaticals if needed, hire temp help sporadically, etc.
- Ancalagon 9y ago
  Oh I agree completely, it should be fine. But mega-insurance already managed to lobby basic universal health care out of existence. And now that those safety nets have been removed, employers want to have their cake and eat it too by not giving health insurance to their employees. I'd rather the american people have some access to healthcare than none at all. So until the people figure out that universal healthcare is the only way to go, unfortunately this is the best option.
  - 9y ago
twobyfour 9y ago
Most of the "gig economy" is not contracts like a freelancer negotiates. It's tons of tiny jobs at non-negotiable rates like Uber or Fiverr pay their "contractors". I agree that they're terrible jobs that one should take only if truly desperate for work or perhaps to supplement another income. But talking about whether people taking them are cut out to negotiate contracts totally misses the point.
- Ancalagon 9y ago
  I'd rather not get caught up in semantics, but you are correct, and what I said was mistaken. The point still stands, that independent "employment" is usually a bad deal.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  Uber is the cute one. There are people going into debt buying that Uber approved four door taxi. All to be at the mercy/whims of this company. Most of the workforce cannot work in tech. People are desperate. Hell--even most of tech will be thinned out in a few months. I don't see it getting better either. I don't see a business out there not trying to eliminate jobs. You have immigrants that are happy with being exploited. You have a whole generation of people who don't believe in unions. I know a lot of you don't believe in government regulations, and I'm not either for the most part, but these "side hussle", gig jobs are begging for a butt slapping. F they want to exploit workers--move to the country that allows exploitation. Just go! If you can't guarantee minimum wage--have the federal government takeover the website. Yes, I'm looking right at you Mechanicalturk/Fiverr. (I know nothing about Fiverr--but can just picture the thieving site.). If you are taking advantage of Independent Contractor laws--have the federal government do their job. Don't pay sales tax--have the you know. Hold onto fees for weeks because you can--gave the federal government shut it down. I'm not just picking on tech. I would like to do away with all volunteer jobs, in every sector of society, except within the family. Yes, Moderators would get paid. Internships would be history. It was kinda cute a few years ago, but now I see companies just exploiting. "Hay bro--we got our app. Website is hot. Now how do we get someone to deliver our product for essentiall free? Oh yea--and those taxes? I guess that's why they had Retail leases? You mean the customer drove their car to us? Trippy? Our app will work? Why bro? Because American employment hasen't been this bad in years. What--the unemployment number is low? You have to look at the ever increasing "able bodied, but just gave up" number. There's tons of works we can Hussle."
MrMember 9y ago
My first job out of college was a contracted position and it sucked. The salary was average and the benefits nonexistent. I was let go along with all the other contractors when the market the company was in took a downturn and it was probably the best thing that could have happened to my career. The job helped me build some work experience for my resume but I would never take another contracting position unless the pay was extraordinary or I had no other choice.
tboyd47 9y ago
As a tech worker I appreciate your firm pro-worker stance, but what if we don't support the current system of having your health care be tied to your job, and letting your employer dictate your allotted vacation time and holidays, while allowing them to ask for unlimited legal unpaid overtime?
- Ancalagon 9y ago
  Join unions and be active in government. That's really as simple as I can put it. I don't have an answer to how best to get others to do those things, especially with the general apathy I feel in my generation for anything government-related. But those are the solutions.
  - tboyd47 9y ago
    Is there a programmer's union? If not, would it be worth it to start one? Honestly, it's something I've been thinking about for some time now. I have a lot of family and friends from NYC who have expressed both pros and cons to me about unions. I have no experience with it but I'm becoming more and more interested as I become aware of industry-wide problems.
    - zrail 9y ago
      HN's own idlewords, also known as Pinboard, has started an organization named Tech Solidarity, which is definitely not a union but but labor organization is one of it's goals. https://techsolidarity.org https://techsolidarity.org
rudedogg 9y ago
I've recently come to this conclusion too. I did remote freelance work for several months, and it was miserable. Some clients are better than others, but if they find you online (and you're not speaking at conferences, etc) it's most likely because they want cheap work. However I have heard success stories (online) from people that find work in their local area/network. I've decided to do my own thing (a sort of micro ISV), and if at all possible I plan to not do freelance work ever again. I'm probably not cut out for it, but I also think software development is just a poor profession for (fixed price) freelance work.
liminalisht 9y ago
I've been working as a contractor for the last year and a half, so I speak from experience, but only anecdotally. Regarding the notion that the flexibility of a contracting position might cause stress for those w/ children, I've found the opposite to be the case. When my child is sick, I simply take a day off and don't bill for that day. I don't worry about sick days at all. This sort of flexibility is a huge plus at this point in my life. If you have a spouse who is employed and you can gain health coverage for him/her, and if this sort of child care flexibility is important to you (because, say, your toddler gets sick all the time), then working as a contractor can make sense. At the same time, I generally agree with you regarding the precedent it sets in the aggregate. I also realize that the case I've described is somewhat special.
- paulryanrogers 9y ago
  Having an employed spouse seems to be a common thread
  - liminalisht 9y ago
    Yes, and I never would even consider it otherwise.

NicoJuicy 9y ago

Why should HN disagree with you? I completely agree, I sometimes have problems asking for the right amount of money. And I do it more than the average. It's hard to demand what you want

Ancalagon 9y ago
I don't think HN should disagree with me. In fact I think everyone on HN should repeat what I said to everyone they know . Don't take contract work, unless you're absolutely desperate. The reason I was being so defensive though was because I know there are a lot of freelancers on HN. I'm not trying to bash their lifestyles or work choices, just pointing out that taking this kind of work (whether as a software engineer or as a janitor) sets a precedent that encourages employers to further view their employees as red numbers on a spreadsheet to be marginalized and reduced. But thank you for the comment, I get somewhat heated when this topic comes up because it seems like such an obviously bad deal for so many people.
- kaybe 9y ago
  I wonder how country-specific your advice is.
  - Ancalagon 9y ago
    Pretty specific to america. Most other countries don't tie healthcare (and a myriad other social services and benefits) and gainful employment to one another.
    - TimPC 9y ago
      Contract work in Toronto was pretty good, especially with clients from markets with higher cost structures. You still generally want healthcare coverage on-top of the public system in Canada, but you can often get a better rate through either small business groups or an alumni association or other such alternatives. The downside of contract is you work some unpaid hours on the business itself (although you bill every hour you work for a client if you bill hourly, or use judgement on how much to work if you bill weekly). The pay tends to range from above market to way above market but some of that is absorbed by benefits. Taxes tend to be potentially lower in Canada for contract work in Canada depending on your structuring. Trudeau did attempt to change that with a policy to alter how holding money within corporations works so the way you achieve lower taxes does put some of your income at risk of some version of this policy eventually passing.

humanrebar 9y ago

Contract work should be fine. I frankly blame the American government for tying healthcare to not just employment status but particular employer so tightly for so long. It is frankly ridiculous and disgraceful that our political leaders are not held to account for this. The early Tea Party was supposed to be organized around a theme of "stop the nonsense and denial!" with respect to these kinds of problems, but it was quickly corrupted by the ignorant and by the people who were hoping to find ignorance. Rather than turning energy and community action into positive change, they were derided and stymied. So now we have Trump who is basically nonsense and denial personified. Not that Obamacare did anything to get us off the employer healthcare crutch. In that respect, things seem to have just gotten worse. And I'm a person that doesn't think everything needs to be political! It's just hard to get around the fact that American is grossly misgoverned here. But the American voter can't bring itself to vote on real issues instead of rooting for its political team. This gives me little hope that we'll ever get the 2/3 to 3/4 consensus we'll need to practically fix this (1). (1) Even if we don't need that many people agreeing to pass legislation, I think things like reforming entire sectors of the economy and employer/employee relationships requires very broad support to be both fair and lasting. Having 51% of voters pee in the cornflakes of the other 49% doesn't get us anywhere. Hopefully that's clear given American politics since 2006 or so. EDIT: To tie this back to contract work, contract work is great and provides needed dynamism and small-business know-how to the economy. But it's very risky. One needs an independent source of income (other investments, working professional spouse) or a big pile of capital so you can weather ups and downs, take health sabbaticals if needed, hire temp help sporadically, etc.

Ancalagon 9y ago
Oh I agree completely, it should be fine. But mega-insurance already managed to lobby basic universal health care out of existence. And now that those safety nets have been removed, employers want to have their cake and eat it too by not giving health insurance to their employees. I'd rather the american people have some access to healthcare than none at all. So until the people figure out that universal healthcare is the only way to go, unfortunately this is the best option.
- 9y ago

twobyfour 9y ago

Most of the "gig economy" is not contracts like a freelancer negotiates. It's tons of tiny jobs at non-negotiable rates like Uber or Fiverr pay their "contractors". I agree that they're terrible jobs that one should take only if truly desperate for work or perhaps to supplement another income. But talking about whether people taking them are cut out to negotiate contracts totally misses the point.

Ancalagon 9y ago
I'd rather not get caught up in semantics, but you are correct, and what I said was mistaken. The point still stands, that independent "employment" is usually a bad deal.
icantdrive55 9y ago
Uber is the cute one. There are people going into debt buying that Uber approved four door taxi. All to be at the mercy/whims of this company. Most of the workforce cannot work in tech. People are desperate. Hell--even most of tech will be thinned out in a few months. I don't see it getting better either. I don't see a business out there not trying to eliminate jobs. You have immigrants that are happy with being exploited. You have a whole generation of people who don't believe in unions. I know a lot of you don't believe in government regulations, and I'm not either for the most part, but these "side hussle", gig jobs are begging for a butt slapping. F they want to exploit workers--move to the country that allows exploitation. Just go! If you can't guarantee minimum wage--have the federal government takeover the website. Yes, I'm looking right at you Mechanicalturk/Fiverr. (I know nothing about Fiverr--but can just picture the thieving site.). If you are taking advantage of Independent Contractor laws--have the federal government do their job. Don't pay sales tax--have the you know. Hold onto fees for weeks because you can--gave the federal government shut it down. I'm not just picking on tech. I would like to do away with all volunteer jobs, in every sector of society, except within the family. Yes, Moderators would get paid. Internships would be history. It was kinda cute a few years ago, but now I see companies just exploiting. "Hay bro--we got our app. Website is hot. Now how do we get someone to deliver our product for essentiall free? Oh yea--and those taxes? I guess that's why they had Retail leases? You mean the customer drove their car to us? Trippy? Our app will work? Why bro? Because American employment hasen't been this bad in years. What--the unemployment number is low? You have to look at the ever increasing "able bodied, but just gave up" number. There's tons of works we can Hussle."

MrMember 9y ago

My first job out of college was a contracted position and it sucked. The salary was average and the benefits nonexistent. I was let go along with all the other contractors when the market the company was in took a downturn and it was probably the best thing that could have happened to my career. The job helped me build some work experience for my resume but I would never take another contracting position unless the pay was extraordinary or I had no other choice.

tboyd47 9y ago

As a tech worker I appreciate your firm pro-worker stance, but what if we don't support the current system of having your health care be tied to your job, and letting your employer dictate your allotted vacation time and holidays, while allowing them to ask for unlimited legal unpaid overtime?

Ancalagon 9y ago
Join unions and be active in government. That's really as simple as I can put it. I don't have an answer to how best to get others to do those things, especially with the general apathy I feel in my generation for anything government-related. But those are the solutions.
- tboyd47 9y ago
  Is there a programmer's union? If not, would it be worth it to start one? Honestly, it's something I've been thinking about for some time now. I have a lot of family and friends from NYC who have expressed both pros and cons to me about unions. I have no experience with it but I'm becoming more and more interested as I become aware of industry-wide problems.
  - zrail 9y ago
    HN's own idlewords, also known as Pinboard, has started an organization named Tech Solidarity, which is definitely not a union but but labor organization is one of it's goals. https://techsolidarity.org https://techsolidarity.org

rudedogg 9y ago

I've recently come to this conclusion too. I did remote freelance work for several months, and it was miserable. Some clients are better than others, but if they find you online (and you're not speaking at conferences, etc) it's most likely because they want cheap work. However I have heard success stories (online) from people that find work in their local area/network. I've decided to do my own thing (a sort of micro ISV), and if at all possible I plan to not do freelance work ever again. I'm probably not cut out for it, but I also think software development is just a poor profession for (fixed price) freelance work.

liminalisht 9y ago

I've been working as a contractor for the last year and a half, so I speak from experience, but only anecdotally. Regarding the notion that the flexibility of a contracting position might cause stress for those w/ children, I've found the opposite to be the case. When my child is sick, I simply take a day off and don't bill for that day. I don't worry about sick days at all. This sort of flexibility is a huge plus at this point in my life. If you have a spouse who is employed and you can gain health coverage for him/her, and if this sort of child care flexibility is important to you (because, say, your toddler gets sick all the time), then working as a contractor can make sense. At the same time, I generally agree with you regarding the precedent it sets in the aggregate. I also realize that the case I've described is somewhat special.

paulryanrogers 9y ago
Having an employed spouse seems to be a common thread
- liminalisht 9y ago
  Yes, and I never would even consider it otherwise.