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Google is a company and there's very little that we (the citizens) can do against it. duckduckgo.com That was easy! Now, please let me know how I can select a

Google is a company and there's very little that we (the citizens) can do against it. duckduckgo.com That was easy! Now, please let me know how I can select a different set of tax laws, drug laws, civil liberties, tort laws, and foreign policies. (And no, moving to a different country is not as easy as typing in a different URL.)

nanairo 16y ago
You vote for it. Sorry, it may not be much but that's how democracy works. I'd love to hear of a better system but as someone a lot wiser than me said, they haven't found it yet. At the same time these are laws that will affect you AND other people: if everyone thought about themselves we'd get nowhere. We could start a political philosophy discussion but I think it's OT. As for changing URL, first you may very well lose much in doing so (isn't it getting harder and harder to avoid using Google?). That's the whole point of monopolies, and the USA has many laws to prevent abuse of monopoly powers. Why should we not have laws to prevent abuse of information power?
- byrneseyeview 16y ago
  I don't understand. My vote is meaningless; I've never decided an election. If an election is close enough for one vote to make a difference, you can bet that it will go to the courts. So it sounds like what you're saying is that if I don't like the government, my options are expensive and/or ineffectual, whereas if I don't like Google, I can spend a fraction of a second switching to another search engine. Of course it's getting harder to avoid Google! But it's still possible, if you feel that it's net beneficial. I think another way to phrase your argument is "By using my personal information to target ads and create more valuable search results, Google can subsidize some amazing products that I love. I would prefer to live in a reality in which such products exist, but can be paid for through some alternative means. Give me that reality, please." Or you mean "It's not worth it for me to use Google products, so I don't." This isn't like participating in politics; you can actually make a difference. Is Google worth it?
philwelch 16y ago
Right you are. The OP breaks out this old chestnut: ...but at least our government answers to its citizens through elections. but frankly, corporations are a lot more responsive than governments--I can choose which corporations effect me more easily than I can choose which governments effect me, and while one marginal vote has literally no effect, one marginal sale has at least a marginal effect. So while one political party can happily ignore maybe 1% of the population entirely (polyamorous people trying to get polymarried, perhaps) in favor of an antagonistic 55%, in a business situation any old fringe group can get some business to cater to them (http://www.utilikilts.com/ http://www.utilikilts.com/).
- nanairo 16y ago
  In a perfect market you'd be spot on. But the whole point of monopolies and why they may be dangerous to a market, is because they can use harsh measures and people will still need to use/buy their products. If 60% of the country thinks a government is rubbish, they _can_ be voted out. If 60% of the country thinks a company is abusing its powers but they are a monopoly, then your hands are tide.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    Yeah, but "the government is rubbish" is a wide issue. Even then, if 80% of the people think the government is rubbish but 60% also believe the opposition is rubbish, nothing happens. It gets worse when you drill down to single issues. Suppose I'm mad at the FCC. How exactly do I hold the elected government accountable for the actions of the civil service? And how much weight do I give my grievance with the FCC compared to all the other issues influencing my vote? And how do I tell if the opposition is any better? The argument that we can at least control the government through elections is usually used to defend bringing something under the control of unelected bureaucrats so voters can simply ignore the issue in future elections in favor of some invented controversy about community centers in Manhattan or whatnot.

nanairo 16y ago

You vote for it. Sorry, it may not be much but that's how democracy works. I'd love to hear of a better system but as someone a lot wiser than me said, they haven't found it yet. At the same time these are laws that will affect you AND other people: if everyone thought about themselves we'd get nowhere. We could start a political philosophy discussion but I think it's OT. As for changing URL, first you may very well lose much in doing so (isn't it getting harder and harder to avoid using Google?). That's the whole point of monopolies, and the USA has many laws to prevent abuse of monopoly powers. Why should we not have laws to prevent abuse of information power?

byrneseyeview 16y ago
I don't understand. My vote is meaningless; I've never decided an election. If an election is close enough for one vote to make a difference, you can bet that it will go to the courts. So it sounds like what you're saying is that if I don't like the government, my options are expensive and/or ineffectual, whereas if I don't like Google, I can spend a fraction of a second switching to another search engine. Of course it's getting harder to avoid Google! But it's still possible, if you feel that it's net beneficial. I think another way to phrase your argument is "By using my personal information to target ads and create more valuable search results, Google can subsidize some amazing products that I love. I would prefer to live in a reality in which such products exist, but can be paid for through some alternative means. Give me that reality, please." Or you mean "It's not worth it for me to use Google products, so I don't." This isn't like participating in politics; you can actually make a difference. Is Google worth it?

philwelch 16y ago

Right you are. The OP breaks out this old chestnut: ...but at least our government answers to its citizens through elections. but frankly, corporations are a lot more responsive than governments--I can choose which corporations effect me more easily than I can choose which governments effect me, and while one marginal vote has literally no effect, one marginal sale has at least a marginal effect. So while one political party can happily ignore maybe 1% of the population entirely (polyamorous people trying to get polymarried, perhaps) in favor of an antagonistic 55%, in a business situation any old fringe group can get some business to cater to them (http://www.utilikilts.com/ http://www.utilikilts.com/).

nanairo 16y ago
In a perfect market you'd be spot on. But the whole point of monopolies and why they may be dangerous to a market, is because they can use harsh measures and people will still need to use/buy their products. If 60% of the country thinks a government is rubbish, they _can_ be voted out. If 60% of the country thinks a company is abusing its powers but they are a monopoly, then your hands are tide.
- philwelch 16y ago
  Yeah, but "the government is rubbish" is a wide issue. Even then, if 80% of the people think the government is rubbish but 60% also believe the opposition is rubbish, nothing happens. It gets worse when you drill down to single issues. Suppose I'm mad at the FCC. How exactly do I hold the elected government accountable for the actions of the civil service? And how much weight do I give my grievance with the FCC compared to all the other issues influencing my vote? And how do I tell if the opposition is any better? The argument that we can at least control the government through elections is usually used to defend bringing something under the control of unelected bureaucrats so voters can simply ignore the issue in future elections in favor of some invented controversy about community centers in Manhattan or whatnot.