4 ms·

Of course they would. Modern toryism needs voters of all classes to believe they act in their interests, in a way they never needed to when only male landowners

Of course they would. Modern toryism needs voters of all classes to believe they act in their interests, in a way they never needed to when only male landowners were allowed to vote. What hasn't changed is that they still actually only represent rich landowners interests, whereas now they have to lie to the wider electorate. The "Hang them and flog them" herrenmoral is never far away. Or indeed shoot them (the Troubles), or let them burn (cf. Grenfell Tower)

gadders 9y ago
I think there is a large proportion of working class conservative voters, especially in the south east of England. I realise many groups have tried to make political capital out of the tragedy of Grenfell Tower, but it's more cock-up than conspiracy.
- richmarr 9y ago
  > I think there is a large proportion of working class conservative voters There's a difference between having the voters and serving the voters. One might reasonably ask how tax cuts and spending cuts serve working class voters, and the answer would inevitably involve trickle-down economics, which is a theory for which startlingly little evidence exists. Modern laissez-faire parties instead play on the aspirations of working class voters... the argument that when you're rich you'll want low taxes, as well as fears, the dangerous foriegner coming to take your job. > but it's more cock-up than conspiracy. This is demonstrably not the case. There has been an active policy of reducing regulation (eg. the "one in two out" policy), which included regressive decisions around fire safety regulation both at a central policy level and in large numbers of individual cases. Here's Jacob Reese Mogg, poster-boy of a particular strain of the Tory party, and an elected Tory MP, arguing in 2016 (before the Grenfell fire) that safety regulations should be rolled back from EU standards to the (cheaper) standards used in India: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-...
  - gadders 9y ago
    Well, presumably working class people are as able as anyone else to decide what is in their best interest. And we will have to disagree on laissez faire economics. With Grenfell, exactly the same cladding that exacerbated the fire has been applied to buildings in Labour as well as Conservative boroughs. And the cladding only existed in the first place to meet climate change targets. I really don't think that you can claim that Grenfell is a party political issue.
    - richmarr 9y ago
      > Well, presumably working class people are as able as anyone else to decide what is in their best interest. This is a fallacious argument based on the assumption that people are all engaged and informed, which is not the case, and working class people aren't alone in that. People make decisions based on the information environment available to them. When your information environment consists of The Sun and The Daily Mail making up fictional anti-EU anti-immigrant headlines (then issuing retractions a few weeks later in small print) then your decisions are being... framed... by a very small number of very influential people. You can try and argue that propoganda doesn't work, but you'd be arguing against the history of the 20th century, from Goebbels to Madison Avenue. > With Grenfell, exactly the same cladding that exacerbated the fire has been applied to buildings in Labour as well as Conservative boroughs. I haven't seen reports on that. > And the cladding only existed in the first place to meet climate change targets. What's the relevance of this? Are you blaming climate change now? > I really don't think that you can claim that Grenfell is a party political issue. Nonsense. Go listen to Mogg argue for fire safety deregulation. He wouldn't be able to do that as a Labour MP, and he certainly wouldn't garner support.
      - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
        >This is a fallacious argument based on the assumption that people are all engaged and informed, which is not the case, and working class people aren't alone in that. I would rather see people hang themselves with their own rope than be told how to tie a noose by others who supposedly know what's best for them.

gadders 9y ago

I think there is a large proportion of working class conservative voters, especially in the south east of England. I realise many groups have tried to make political capital out of the tragedy of Grenfell Tower, but it's more cock-up than conspiracy.

richmarr 9y ago
> I think there is a large proportion of working class conservative voters There's a difference between having the voters and serving the voters. One might reasonably ask how tax cuts and spending cuts serve working class voters, and the answer would inevitably involve trickle-down economics, which is a theory for which startlingly little evidence exists. Modern laissez-faire parties instead play on the aspirations of working class voters... the argument that when you're rich you'll want low taxes, as well as fears, the dangerous foriegner coming to take your job. > but it's more cock-up than conspiracy. This is demonstrably not the case. There has been an active policy of reducing regulation (eg. the "one in two out" policy), which included regressive decisions around fire safety regulation both at a central policy level and in large numbers of individual cases. Here's Jacob Reese Mogg, poster-boy of a particular strain of the Tory party, and an elected Tory MP, arguing in 2016 (before the Grenfell fire) that safety regulations should be rolled back from EU standards to the (cheaper) standards used in India: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-...
- gadders 9y ago
  Well, presumably working class people are as able as anyone else to decide what is in their best interest. And we will have to disagree on laissez faire economics. With Grenfell, exactly the same cladding that exacerbated the fire has been applied to buildings in Labour as well as Conservative boroughs. And the cladding only existed in the first place to meet climate change targets. I really don't think that you can claim that Grenfell is a party political issue.
  - richmarr 9y ago
    > Well, presumably working class people are as able as anyone else to decide what is in their best interest. This is a fallacious argument based on the assumption that people are all engaged and informed, which is not the case, and working class people aren't alone in that. People make decisions based on the information environment available to them. When your information environment consists of The Sun and The Daily Mail making up fictional anti-EU anti-immigrant headlines (then issuing retractions a few weeks later in small print) then your decisions are being... framed... by a very small number of very influential people. You can try and argue that propoganda doesn't work, but you'd be arguing against the history of the 20th century, from Goebbels to Madison Avenue. > With Grenfell, exactly the same cladding that exacerbated the fire has been applied to buildings in Labour as well as Conservative boroughs. I haven't seen reports on that. > And the cladding only existed in the first place to meet climate change targets. What's the relevance of this? Are you blaming climate change now? > I really don't think that you can claim that Grenfell is a party political issue. Nonsense. Go listen to Mogg argue for fire safety deregulation. He wouldn't be able to do that as a Labour MP, and he certainly wouldn't garner support.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      >This is a fallacious argument based on the assumption that people are all engaged and informed, which is not the case, and working class people aren't alone in that. I would rather see people hang themselves with their own rope than be told how to tie a noose by others who supposedly know what's best for them.