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Bro, literally every language does indentation. Python just does indentation badly by making it syntactically significant. Also. If you're going to come back t

by newen 9y ago

Bro, literally every language does indentation. Python just does indentation badly by making it syntactically significant. Also. If you're going to come back to me with the argument that it forces people to use indentation, I've got some news for you. Literally everyone uses indentation. And if you somehow come across code written by the rare soul that doesn't use indentation, all I've to do is select the entire code and click "re-indent". Which, btw, in python is a chore to fix badly indented code with tabs and spaces mixed in together. And it's even more work to properly copy-paste python code, even in good editors.

mixmastamyk 9y ago
> everyone uses indentation. Yes, if you don’t you’re incompetent. If you do, the markers are then redundant. Mixed indentation hasn’t been allowed in years. Any good editor will show mixed indentation, guides, and indent properly with the tab key, get one. Sounds like your knowledge of Python is about a decade behind. Not to mention those were nonissues from my experience even back in the day.
- newen 9y ago
  These issues are only there because python has significant whitespace. These issues should not have been there in the first place. Ideally, I shouldn't need to use an editor geared specifically for python code to copy-paste some python code and run it. I have had no issues with the majority of other languages when copy-pasting some code and reindenting. Only in python have I had issues with it. Even in elpy-mode in Emacs, I have had issues. Another is Jupyter/IPython, a widely used python IDE for data scientists, where this problem crops up all the time. So lay off with the superior attitude.
  - emmelaich 9y ago
    When I started writing C a million years ago I thought to myself -- why the f$# does the compiler need to be told twice what the structure of my code is? Once with {} and once with indentation. It's not as if anyone half-sensible is going to write good code with bad indentation. With that thought in mind, I am pathetically grateful for Python.
    - ptman 9y ago
      the compiler doesn't care about indentation, look at IOCCC https://www.ioccc.org https://www.ioccc.org
      - emmelaich 9y ago
        I know. I'm saying it should. Because why not?
        newen 9y ago
        Because small invisible changes in the code text can result in actual changes in the logic of the code.
        toyg 9y ago
        They are not invisible in any half-decent editor.
        newen 9y ago
        But in the majority of editors that actual people use (mainly, jupyter/ipython), they are invisible. Not to distract from my point though, which is that a good programming language should be easily editable from Notepad.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        toyg 9y ago
        This is where your bias shows. You define this "majority of people" by looking at your niche - you must be in academia or big data. I can tell you that in my niche nobody knows what the hell jupyter even is, and they use real editors like PyCharm, emacs, vim and so on, where whitespace is never a problem. > a good programming language should be easily editable from Notepad. The '90s called, they want their notepad back. Please. Not even Windows users run Notepad, anybody with a minimum of knowledge will use Notepad++. And guess what, N++ has plenty of features to deal with whitespace.
  - mixmastamyk 9y ago
    Don’t need a special editor, just an industry-standard one, that’s the whole point. I was bothered by the whitespace too, for an hour one afternoon in the spring of ~2001. Then I got over it and realized what a masterstroke it was, removing ~15% of the redundant visual noise. Firstly, if you cut and paste so often that you feel it should take precedence over everyday readability and conciseness, then that’s a dev smell. Code is read 10x as much as written, likely one reason perl declined. Secondly, you could simply toggle view whitespace on your editor or have it replace the indent chars on the tab key. Geany does this automatically via pref and it’s Python-specific support is basic. Thirdly, Python3 and pep8 make issues even less likely than they were. Which is approximately never in my experience in the last ten years or so. So, this subthread could have been on slashdot in ‘98, hence the frustration. It’s such a fucking non-issue and productivity boon. Like using yaml for config instead of json.
    - newen 9y ago
      My point is that you should be able to code python using Notepad but it is impossible to. Yeah, when multiple people complain of the same thing and you make up more and more complicated solutions for the problem, then you know where the problem lies. Also, you smell.
      - mixmastamyk 9y ago
        Yeah, using an editor is so complicated. Maybe programming isn’t for you.
        newen 9y ago
        There are many cases where it is. And your rudeness and devolution into pathetic statements like this is noted.

by newen 9y ago

mixmastamyk 9y ago

> everyone uses indentation. Yes, if you don’t you’re incompetent. If you do, the markers are then redundant. Mixed indentation hasn’t been allowed in years. Any good editor will show mixed indentation, guides, and indent properly with the tab key, get one. Sounds like your knowledge of Python is about a decade behind. Not to mention those were nonissues from my experience even back in the day.

newen 9y ago
These issues are only there because python has significant whitespace. These issues should not have been there in the first place. Ideally, I shouldn't need to use an editor geared specifically for python code to copy-paste some python code and run it. I have had no issues with the majority of other languages when copy-pasting some code and reindenting. Only in python have I had issues with it. Even in elpy-mode in Emacs, I have had issues. Another is Jupyter/IPython, a widely used python IDE for data scientists, where this problem crops up all the time. So lay off with the superior attitude.
- emmelaich 9y ago
  When I started writing C a million years ago I thought to myself -- why the f$# does the compiler need to be told twice what the structure of my code is? Once with {} and once with indentation. It's not as if anyone half-sensible is going to write good code with bad indentation. With that thought in mind, I am pathetically grateful for Python.
  - ptman 9y ago
    the compiler doesn't care about indentation, look at IOCCC https://www.ioccc.org https://www.ioccc.org
    - emmelaich 9y ago
      I know. I'm saying it should. Because why not?
      - newen 9y ago
        Because small invisible changes in the code text can result in actual changes in the logic of the code.
        toyg 9y ago
        They are not invisible in any half-decent editor.
        newen 9y ago
        But in the majority of editors that actual people use (mainly, jupyter/ipython), they are invisible. Not to distract from my point though, which is that a good programming language should be easily editable from Notepad.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        toyg 9y ago
        This is where your bias shows. You define this "majority of people" by looking at your niche - you must be in academia or big data. I can tell you that in my niche nobody knows what the hell jupyter even is, and they use real editors like PyCharm, emacs, vim and so on, where whitespace is never a problem. > a good programming language should be easily editable from Notepad. The '90s called, they want their notepad back. Please. Not even Windows users run Notepad, anybody with a minimum of knowledge will use Notepad++. And guess what, N++ has plenty of features to deal with whitespace.
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  Don’t need a special editor, just an industry-standard one, that’s the whole point. I was bothered by the whitespace too, for an hour one afternoon in the spring of ~2001. Then I got over it and realized what a masterstroke it was, removing ~15% of the redundant visual noise. Firstly, if you cut and paste so often that you feel it should take precedence over everyday readability and conciseness, then that’s a dev smell. Code is read 10x as much as written, likely one reason perl declined. Secondly, you could simply toggle view whitespace on your editor or have it replace the indent chars on the tab key. Geany does this automatically via pref and it’s Python-specific support is basic. Thirdly, Python3 and pep8 make issues even less likely than they were. Which is approximately never in my experience in the last ten years or so. So, this subthread could have been on slashdot in ‘98, hence the frustration. It’s such a fucking non-issue and productivity boon. Like using yaml for config instead of json.
  - newen 9y ago
    My point is that you should be able to code python using Notepad but it is impossible to. Yeah, when multiple people complain of the same thing and you make up more and more complicated solutions for the problem, then you know where the problem lies. Also, you smell.
    - mixmastamyk 9y ago
      Yeah, using an editor is so complicated. Maybe programming isn’t for you.
      - newen 9y ago
        There are many cases where it is. And your rudeness and devolution into pathetic statements like this is noted.