8 ms·

> in case you have no idea how to enter ⤐ or whatever. Did you mean to type a black square there, or is my Android phone missing a font? In any case, this show

by cesarb 9y ago

> in case you have no idea how to enter ⤐ or whatever. Did you mean to type a black square there, or is my Android phone missing a font? In any case, this shows a potential issue with using Unicode characters for operators or identifiers: unless it's from a common Unicode block (like basic Greek letters), it might not be readable. It's not just writing that can be a problem.

pletnes 9y ago
I heard many times that perl is «write only». Unicode operators takes it to the next level.
- throwaway7645 9y ago
  APL has used a huge set of non ASCII characters for more than 30 years in production by large companies.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - jnordwick 9y ago
    Modern APL derivatives (namely J and K) have ditched them though in favor of pure ascii.
    - sedachv 9y ago
      The character set and font constraints of the early 1990s, when J (1990) and K (1993) were developed, no longer apply. APL symbols are part of Unicode. There is no technical advantage left to ASCII-only syntax for APL-derived languages.
      - jnordwick 9y ago
        > There is no technical advantage left to ASCII-only syntax for APL-derived languages. Except for that minor technical advantage of actually being on a standard keyboard. That said, I would love standard keyboards to get more symbols. I actally like using symbols instead of words for operators, when done in a consistent and logical fashion as J and K do and unlike Perl's disaster of a syntax. Map and reduce (each and over in APL lingo, in K ' and /) should be a symbol.
        throwaway7645 9y ago
        Agreed on the keyboard thing. Dyalog sells an APL keyboard, but it isn't ergonomic, which I need. I think "/" is a good symbol for map as it is easy access.
        jnordwick 9y ago
        I really want to do a stream based language that is like APL for streams. With the current event sourcing craze right now, I definitely see modern use cases.
        sedachv 9y ago
        > Except for that minor technical advantage of actually being on a standard keyboard. The IBM/Unicomp APL keyboard is a standard PS/2 PC/USB HID keyboard. Literally the only special thing about the IBM/Unicomp APL keyboards is what is printed on the keycaps (which you can buy separately https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/USAPLSET https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/USAPLSET). I don't understand this - how do people on Hacker News not realize that your keyboard does not determine your character encoding? You can easily remap your keys to whatever you want, have multiple layouts for human and computer programming languages, change the modifier and functions keys, whatever you want. All with the keyboard you already have; laptop, external, it doesn't matter. Somehow multiple layouts are not a big deal for multi-lingual people, why is it so confusing for programmers?
        jnordwick 9y ago
        > Somehow multiple layouts are not a big deal for multi-lingual people, why is it so confusing for programmers? I don't know. I would totally do it if others did it. There just isn't a critical mass enough. Maybe the next APLish language needs to have both modes of display similar to how java editors fold old constructs into new ones. That would allow the extra symbols to be slowly adopted.
    - throwaway7645 9y ago
      True that J & K do, but Dyalog doesn't and is pretty modern in that it is still very actively developed...interfaces to Python/R, runs on Raspberry Pi, hooks into .NET, can run on GPU...etc.
- labster 9y ago
  Seriously, if Unicode operators are confusing to you(r group), don't use the feature. But if you're a mathematician, it's nice to have a language that understands set operators.
  - pletnes 9y ago
    Python does: foo in bar
yorwba 9y ago
Android devices tend to lack a lot of Unicode characters for some reason. I typed the "rightwards two-headed triple dash arrow" (not used in Perl AFAIK, I just find the name funny for some reason) and it doesn't show up on my Android either. Another commonly missing character is schwa (ə), which is used quite a lot in IPA transcriptions, and I've seen accented Greek characters missing as well, so it's not like only very rare characters are neglected.
raldi 9y ago
Paste the character into Google search or Wikipedia URL to find out.

by cesarb 9y ago

pletnes 9y ago

I heard many times that perl is «write only». Unicode operators takes it to the next level.

throwaway7645 9y ago
APL has used a huge set of non ASCII characters for more than 30 years in production by large companies.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jnordwick 9y ago
  Modern APL derivatives (namely J and K) have ditched them though in favor of pure ascii.
  - sedachv 9y ago
    The character set and font constraints of the early 1990s, when J (1990) and K (1993) were developed, no longer apply. APL symbols are part of Unicode. There is no technical advantage left to ASCII-only syntax for APL-derived languages.
    - jnordwick 9y ago
      > There is no technical advantage left to ASCII-only syntax for APL-derived languages. Except for that minor technical advantage of actually being on a standard keyboard. That said, I would love standard keyboards to get more symbols. I actally like using symbols instead of words for operators, when done in a consistent and logical fashion as J and K do and unlike Perl's disaster of a syntax. Map and reduce (each and over in APL lingo, in K ' and /) should be a symbol.
      - throwaway7645 9y ago
        Agreed on the keyboard thing. Dyalog sells an APL keyboard, but it isn't ergonomic, which I need. I think "/" is a good symbol for map as it is easy access.
        jnordwick 9y ago
        I really want to do a stream based language that is like APL for streams. With the current event sourcing craze right now, I definitely see modern use cases.
      - sedachv 9y ago
        > Except for that minor technical advantage of actually being on a standard keyboard. The IBM/Unicomp APL keyboard is a standard PS/2 PC/USB HID keyboard. Literally the only special thing about the IBM/Unicomp APL keyboards is what is printed on the keycaps (which you can buy separately https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/USAPLSET https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/USAPLSET). I don't understand this - how do people on Hacker News not realize that your keyboard does not determine your character encoding? You can easily remap your keys to whatever you want, have multiple layouts for human and computer programming languages, change the modifier and functions keys, whatever you want. All with the keyboard you already have; laptop, external, it doesn't matter. Somehow multiple layouts are not a big deal for multi-lingual people, why is it so confusing for programmers?
        jnordwick 9y ago
        > Somehow multiple layouts are not a big deal for multi-lingual people, why is it so confusing for programmers? I don't know. I would totally do it if others did it. There just isn't a critical mass enough. Maybe the next APLish language needs to have both modes of display similar to how java editors fold old constructs into new ones. That would allow the extra symbols to be slowly adopted.
  - throwaway7645 9y ago
    True that J & K do, but Dyalog doesn't and is pretty modern in that it is still very actively developed...interfaces to Python/R, runs on Raspberry Pi, hooks into .NET, can run on GPU...etc.
labster 9y ago
Seriously, if Unicode operators are confusing to you(r group), don't use the feature. But if you're a mathematician, it's nice to have a language that understands set operators.
- pletnes 9y ago
  Python does: foo in bar

yorwba 9y ago

Android devices tend to lack a lot of Unicode characters for some reason. I typed the "rightwards two-headed triple dash arrow" (not used in Perl AFAIK, I just find the name funny for some reason) and it doesn't show up on my Android either. Another commonly missing character is schwa (ə), which is used quite a lot in IPA transcriptions, and I've seen accented Greek characters missing as well, so it's not like only very rare characters are neglected.

raldi 9y ago

Paste the character into Google search or Wikipedia URL to find out.