7 ms·

Milton's Morality: Fallen Man and the Fallen Stature of 'Paradise Lost'

66 points by lermontov 9y ago

gizzlon 9y ago
You can, of course, find Paradise Lost online for free. But as a non-native speaker (reader? :), I find the original English really hard to understand =/
- lfischer 9y ago
  I suspect many native speakers would have difficulty too, because of the age and style of the poem. For me, the difficulty is part of the enjoyment of studying older texts, teasing out the meaning gives me a mental thrill similar to coding.
- 68c12c16 9y ago
  I am also a non-native speaker... my method to read those old English text is to first read a summary or outline (in modern English) of the original work, and then perhaps find some more modern English material on the subject to deepen my understanding...but eventually, I would try to read the original work, as the melody (they call meters; but I feel it is essentially isomorphic to rhythm in music) and the rhyme in those works written by Shakespeare, John Donne, or John Milton (as well as many other great writers) are really really superb, and not that different than the corresponding parts in literary works in other languages. Reading a summary and outline would help you to gain some contextual information, and then you could use some redundancy in human language to get better the intended message the writer hopes to convey...
  - smogcutter 9y ago
    Speaking of rhyme, changes in pronunciation mean much of it is lost even on native speakers: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/03/loves-labours-found-saving-shakespeares-puns/471786/ https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/03/lo... A surprising amount of meaning is lost to puns and jokes that disappear in modern pronunciation.
- AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
  Don't worry, even native English speakers find it difficult to understand. And by that I mean that we can read it and tell you what each word means, but it's so steeped in symbolic imagery and allegory that if you asked the average person to read a stanza aloud and then ask them what happened, they would struggle to do so. What really helps are having glosses or footnotes, where the references can be explained. Unfortunately most commentaries are not public domain, so you may have to shell out some money for a good one. But they were invaluable when reading Shakespeare and Dante, as it made the difference for me between reading Dante and understanding Dante.
  - InitialLastName 9y ago
    Dante especially, as it's packed with references to people who were famous/infamous in 13th century Italy, many of whose reputations didn't last 700 years. Without footnotes, none of those references get to add the color that they deserve.
  - Chaebixi 9y ago
    > Unfortunately most commentaries are not public domain, so you may have to shell out some money for a good one. But they were invaluable when reading Shakespeare and Dante, as it made the difference for me between reading Dante and understanding Dante. Any recommendations for commentaries on any of these?
- dagw 9y ago
  Most native speakers finds the language pretty hard to fully understand. There is however a pretty good modernized version of Paradise Lost by Joseph Lanzara that will give you a good understanding of the story.
68c12c16 9y ago
Milton's depiction of Satan is really against the established western tradition in many ways... For instance, in Homer's The Odyssey, someone as great as Achilles would say, By god, I’d rather slave on earth for another man some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive than rule down here over all the breathless dead. But in a similar situation in Paradise Lost, Satan says, we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: Here we may reign secure, and in my choice to reign is worth ambition though in Hell: Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven. If resolution, perseverance and a heart for liberty are some of the most herioc characters desired in our human world, then in that, Milton's Satan is even more heroic than Achilles... [update: edited the line form for Milton's poem]
- michel__ 9y ago
  The problem with Milton's Paradise Lost is that it's misinterpreted the way you're currently misinterpreting it. Milton didn't seek to characterize a Satan that is worthy of our admiration. Indeed, there's an innate Libertarian core that resides within us all but Milton sought to, like GRRM in the Games of Throne books, expose how morally bankrupt some of us are for admiring an individual such as Satan merely because of his desire to be 'free'. We thus conveniently forget all of the evil that Satan commits because we see something in him that resides within us: an innate desire to, as Rousseau refers to extensively, to be freed of the shackles of tyranny from above.
  - 68c12c16 9y ago
    Thanks for helping me to better get that message. I agree and that's what I have always been feeling a bit puzzled about, as in 17th century England, religious correctness is still not a trivial thing. But in a certain sense, Satan is not absolutely evil and not having no good characters at all. For instance, as the example mentioned in the article, Satan is quite empathetic towards his fellow fallen angels -- and this empathy, would often invoke reader's empathy to a certain extent. So perhaps Milton hopes to create a Satan that has some subtle and mixed characters, with depth, with a spectrum of shades. I feel this method is similarly employed in many Shakespeare's plays (such as Angelo in Measure for Measure), which were written even earlier than Paradise Lost.
joshuahedlund 9y ago
I would be really interested in a Jordan-Peterson-style analysis of Paradise Lost.
bhewes 9y ago
In the Poetry Milton is always there in juxtaposition to the Libertines such as John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester. He has whole college English classes in the USA devoted to him. And anyone who seriously studies English Literature has to wrestle with Paradise Lost. So it is strange to see pop culture celebrations and new book publications (three new books on a well known 350 year old book is amazing) as equal to fallen stature.
keiferski 9y ago
Paradise Lost has some incredible lines, even to the modern reader. Some of my favorites (I keep them in Anki to periodically remind myself of them): - No light, but rather darkness visible. - Rather than be less, cared not to be at all. - To sit in darkness here, hatching vain empires. - The rising world of waters dark and deep. (not sure why this has never been referenced in a rising-sea-levels article - seems quite apt) - Flowers worthy of paradise. - And I feel that I am happier than I know.

66 points by lermontov 9y ago

You can, of course, find Paradise Lost online for free. But as a non-native speaker (reader? :), I find the original English really hard to understand =/

lfischer 9y ago
I suspect many native speakers would have difficulty too, because of the age and style of the poem. For me, the difficulty is part of the enjoyment of studying older texts, teasing out the meaning gives me a mental thrill similar to coding.
68c12c16 9y ago
I am also a non-native speaker... my method to read those old English text is to first read a summary or outline (in modern English) of the original work, and then perhaps find some more modern English material on the subject to deepen my understanding...but eventually, I would try to read the original work, as the melody (they call meters; but I feel it is essentially isomorphic to rhythm in music) and the rhyme in those works written by Shakespeare, John Donne, or John Milton (as well as many other great writers) are really really superb, and not that different than the corresponding parts in literary works in other languages. Reading a summary and outline would help you to gain some contextual information, and then you could use some redundancy in human language to get better the intended message the writer hopes to convey...
- smogcutter 9y ago
  Speaking of rhyme, changes in pronunciation mean much of it is lost even on native speakers: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/03/loves-labours-found-saving-shakespeares-puns/471786/ https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/03/lo... A surprising amount of meaning is lost to puns and jokes that disappear in modern pronunciation.
AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
Don't worry, even native English speakers find it difficult to understand. And by that I mean that we can read it and tell you what each word means, but it's so steeped in symbolic imagery and allegory that if you asked the average person to read a stanza aloud and then ask them what happened, they would struggle to do so. What really helps are having glosses or footnotes, where the references can be explained. Unfortunately most commentaries are not public domain, so you may have to shell out some money for a good one. But they were invaluable when reading Shakespeare and Dante, as it made the difference for me between reading Dante and understanding Dante.
- InitialLastName 9y ago
  Dante especially, as it's packed with references to people who were famous/infamous in 13th century Italy, many of whose reputations didn't last 700 years. Without footnotes, none of those references get to add the color that they deserve.
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  > Unfortunately most commentaries are not public domain, so you may have to shell out some money for a good one. But they were invaluable when reading Shakespeare and Dante, as it made the difference for me between reading Dante and understanding Dante. Any recommendations for commentaries on any of these?
dagw 9y ago
Most native speakers finds the language pretty hard to fully understand. There is however a pretty good modernized version of Paradise Lost by Joseph Lanzara that will give you a good understanding of the story.

68c12c16 9y ago

Milton's depiction of Satan is really against the established western tradition in many ways... For instance, in Homer's The Odyssey, someone as great as Achilles would say, By god, I’d rather slave on earth for another man some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive than rule down here over all the breathless dead. But in a similar situation in Paradise Lost, Satan says, we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: Here we may reign secure, and in my choice to reign is worth ambition though in Hell: Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven. If resolution, perseverance and a heart for liberty are some of the most herioc characters desired in our human world, then in that, Milton's Satan is even more heroic than Achilles... [update: edited the line form for Milton's poem]

michel__ 9y ago
The problem with Milton's Paradise Lost is that it's misinterpreted the way you're currently misinterpreting it. Milton didn't seek to characterize a Satan that is worthy of our admiration. Indeed, there's an innate Libertarian core that resides within us all but Milton sought to, like GRRM in the Games of Throne books, expose how morally bankrupt some of us are for admiring an individual such as Satan merely because of his desire to be 'free'. We thus conveniently forget all of the evil that Satan commits because we see something in him that resides within us: an innate desire to, as Rousseau refers to extensively, to be freed of the shackles of tyranny from above.
- 68c12c16 9y ago
  Thanks for helping me to better get that message. I agree and that's what I have always been feeling a bit puzzled about, as in 17th century England, religious correctness is still not a trivial thing. But in a certain sense, Satan is not absolutely evil and not having no good characters at all. For instance, as the example mentioned in the article, Satan is quite empathetic towards his fellow fallen angels -- and this empathy, would often invoke reader's empathy to a certain extent. So perhaps Milton hopes to create a Satan that has some subtle and mixed characters, with depth, with a spectrum of shades. I feel this method is similarly employed in many Shakespeare's plays (such as Angelo in Measure for Measure), which were written even earlier than Paradise Lost.

joshuahedlund 9y ago

I would be really interested in a Jordan-Peterson-style analysis of Paradise Lost.

bhewes 9y ago

In the Poetry Milton is always there in juxtaposition to the Libertines such as John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester. He has whole college English classes in the USA devoted to him. And anyone who seriously studies English Literature has to wrestle with Paradise Lost. So it is strange to see pop culture celebrations and new book publications (three new books on a well known 350 year old book is amazing) as equal to fallen stature.

keiferski 9y ago

Paradise Lost has some incredible lines, even to the modern reader. Some of my favorites (I keep them in Anki to periodically remind myself of them): - No light, but rather darkness visible. - Rather than be less, cared not to be at all. - To sit in darkness here, hatching vain empires. - The rising world of waters dark and deep. (not sure why this has never been referenced in a rising-sea-levels article - seems quite apt) - Flowers worthy of paradise. - And I feel that I am happier than I know.