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Not just Google. This is standard in any major tech company. His behavior and abhorrent and there is no excuse. Tech should embrace mentoring, learning, constr

Not just Google. This is standard in any major tech company. His behavior and abhorrent and there is no excuse. Tech should embrace mentoring, learning, constructive criticism, and learning from failures. Yes, this is hopefully a once in a lifetime situation -- but our values need to transcend that. This is not the first time that Linus has swept decency under the carpet. Linus would be such an HR issue at most companies and likely shown the door. If anyone is championing or approving his behavior, this will not win you support and 'points' long term.

amazingman 9y ago
I think the context in which Linus exists professionally is perennially misunderstood. IMO he basically has to be this way, or else the kernel would have been effectively stolen by [insert powerful tech company] at various crucial moments throughout its history. I see his particular position in technology as being truly unique, and that it essentially just requires somewhat exaggerated rhetoric and even superficially childish antics to protect the independence of the kernel. This is not to say that Linus’ behavior is a good model for “how engineers should generally behave”. It just isn’t, and anyone behaving this way in a company should almost certainly be fired. I think he’d probably agree, to boot. But I could be wrong about that. P.S. I hope I don’t come across with disagreeing with you about any of what you think tech “should” be. I totally agree with you.
- quotheth 9y ago
  Can you show me an example where a leader of an OSS project had reasonable discussions with other developers (read: n steps below calling them morons who write garbage code), and as a result their project was "stolen" by a powerful tech company?
  - amazingman 9y ago
    Your question is constructed in just such a way as to make your point for you. Hopefully you’ll see that it’s far too specific of a demand as to truly support your position. Would you provide me with a less specifically bounded question that you think still captures your position on this?
    - quotheth 9y ago
      I asked you to provide an example of the situation you described. I was as specific as you were. I will try to be more straightforward. You've stated that Linus has a unique role, and that he has to be this way or he'll lose the kernel/ essentially be worse at his job. You've provided no examples or evidence (and I asked). In your opinion, Linus must be this way, it is "just required" by his unique position. We have this totally unknowable position that you, for no apparent reason, assume is best suited to people who insult others publicly. And because this position is unique we can't compare him to others, by nature of the position. You have essentially placed Linus in a position where you could basically justify anything. "Oh, well, it's a very unique role - you just have to be xyz for this sort of work". The thing is, Linus's position may be unique, but it has a lot in common with lots of positions we have a good handle on. There are lots of open source leaders out there, lots of people who manage codebases, write code, etc. Maybe not exactly all of those things in exactly the same way, but we have plenty of similar positions. I do not imagine a community so vehemently defending members of those positions who act like Linus. By your own admission this is a bad model for others in the same exact industry with similar roles - you even say they should be fired for acting the way he does. So I guess my question is; what unique aspect of Linus's role makes him so different from everyone else with incredibly similar roles? What evidence is there that, against everything we know about positions like the one he fills, acting the way he does is the right way for his role?
  - donatj 9y ago
    LibreOffice/StarOffice
  - donatj 9y ago
    Firefox + Mr. Robot for a very recent example. Someone at some level should have exclaimed angrily that pushing people an extension without their consent that fiddled with content was a “garbage idea for garbage people”. Instead they lost face and now I and many other privacy concerned users can never trust Firefox ever again.
    - ufo 9y ago
      The firefox situation had more to do with the extension bypassing typical review processes than with engineers seeing the problem but not voicing their opinion. Many Mozilla engineers learned about that debacle the same time that we did.
j1vms 9y ago
You are right on some level, but there may be exceptions to the rule. Keep in mind that Google may never have grown beyond its first years without Linux (and Linus guiding it). There was no other economically viable option with development at the state of the art, at least in those days (the late 90s).
mdekkers 9y ago
His behavior and abhorrent and there is no excuse. Does he owe you anything? Are you co-workers? Are you in his employ? It´s FOSS. If you don´t like it, walk away. The Linux kernel is his creation, his baby, and he runs the show. You don´t like his behavior? You don´t like his attitude? Fork the code, make your own mailinglist, get a bunch of people to submit patches, and knock yourself out. I get that he is a "public figure in tech" and all that, but he owes you nothing - I failed to read the memo where he declared to act as a figurehead for proper behavior, or where he agreed to be an example or anything like that.
nitwit005 9y ago
> This is standard in any major tech company. His behavior and abhorrent and there is no excuse. I work at one of those "major tech companies", and I can assure you that people call things garbage with regularly.

amazingman 9y ago

I think the context in which Linus exists professionally is perennially misunderstood. IMO he basically has to be this way, or else the kernel would have been effectively stolen by [insert powerful tech company] at various crucial moments throughout its history. I see his particular position in technology as being truly unique, and that it essentially just requires somewhat exaggerated rhetoric and even superficially childish antics to protect the independence of the kernel. This is not to say that Linus’ behavior is a good model for “how engineers should generally behave”. It just isn’t, and anyone behaving this way in a company should almost certainly be fired. I think he’d probably agree, to boot. But I could be wrong about that. P.S. I hope I don’t come across with disagreeing with you about any of what you think tech “should” be. I totally agree with you.

quotheth 9y ago
Can you show me an example where a leader of an OSS project had reasonable discussions with other developers (read: n steps below calling them morons who write garbage code), and as a result their project was "stolen" by a powerful tech company?
- amazingman 9y ago
  Your question is constructed in just such a way as to make your point for you. Hopefully you’ll see that it’s far too specific of a demand as to truly support your position. Would you provide me with a less specifically bounded question that you think still captures your position on this?
  - quotheth 9y ago
    I asked you to provide an example of the situation you described. I was as specific as you were. I will try to be more straightforward. You've stated that Linus has a unique role, and that he has to be this way or he'll lose the kernel/ essentially be worse at his job. You've provided no examples or evidence (and I asked). In your opinion, Linus must be this way, it is "just required" by his unique position. We have this totally unknowable position that you, for no apparent reason, assume is best suited to people who insult others publicly. And because this position is unique we can't compare him to others, by nature of the position. You have essentially placed Linus in a position where you could basically justify anything. "Oh, well, it's a very unique role - you just have to be xyz for this sort of work". The thing is, Linus's position may be unique, but it has a lot in common with lots of positions we have a good handle on. There are lots of open source leaders out there, lots of people who manage codebases, write code, etc. Maybe not exactly all of those things in exactly the same way, but we have plenty of similar positions. I do not imagine a community so vehemently defending members of those positions who act like Linus. By your own admission this is a bad model for others in the same exact industry with similar roles - you even say they should be fired for acting the way he does. So I guess my question is; what unique aspect of Linus's role makes him so different from everyone else with incredibly similar roles? What evidence is there that, against everything we know about positions like the one he fills, acting the way he does is the right way for his role?
- donatj 9y ago
  LibreOffice/StarOffice
- donatj 9y ago
  Firefox + Mr. Robot for a very recent example. Someone at some level should have exclaimed angrily that pushing people an extension without their consent that fiddled with content was a “garbage idea for garbage people”. Instead they lost face and now I and many other privacy concerned users can never trust Firefox ever again.
  - ufo 9y ago
    The firefox situation had more to do with the extension bypassing typical review processes than with engineers seeing the problem but not voicing their opinion. Many Mozilla engineers learned about that debacle the same time that we did.

j1vms 9y ago

You are right on some level, but there may be exceptions to the rule. Keep in mind that Google may never have grown beyond its first years without Linux (and Linus guiding it). There was no other economically viable option with development at the state of the art, at least in those days (the late 90s).

mdekkers 9y ago

His behavior and abhorrent and there is no excuse. Does he owe you anything? Are you co-workers? Are you in his employ? It´s FOSS. If you don´t like it, walk away. The Linux kernel is his creation, his baby, and he runs the show. You don´t like his behavior? You don´t like his attitude? Fork the code, make your own mailinglist, get a bunch of people to submit patches, and knock yourself out. I get that he is a "public figure in tech" and all that, but he owes you nothing - I failed to read the memo where he declared to act as a figurehead for proper behavior, or where he agreed to be an example or anything like that.

nitwit005 9y ago

> This is standard in any major tech company. His behavior and abhorrent and there is no excuse. I work at one of those "major tech companies", and I can assure you that people call things garbage with regularly.